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Community => The Lounge => Topic started by: Spanky on Friday, April 09, 2010, 03:36:54 AM
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[00:12] Delta: Well, I still don't believe something as complex as a Human just evolves either :)
[00:13] Spanky: were you born with everything you know now?
[00:13] Delta: No, but the only reason I can know what I know now is because of my ability to think and reason
[00:14] Delta: Which is a God given right :)
[00:14] Delta: That Animals don't have
[00:14] Spanky: :)
[00:14] Delta: And don't even start telling me an animals brain is comparable to a humans
[00:15] Spanky: you learned. knowledge is growing every day and we feed off of that collective pool. many animals are social, just like we are. we've learned and shared over many years. i'm sure you can agree with that?
[00:15] Spanky: at one time we thought flight was impossible yet now it takes place every day
[00:15] Spanky: you agree?
[00:16] Delta: that's not evolution, we always had the capability to understand it
[00:16] Spanky: do you agree?
[00:17] Delta: I do believe in microevolution
[00:17] Spanky: :-I
[00:17] Delta: which I think that falls under
[00:18] Spanky: im gonna do something else
[00:18] Delta: Humans haven't change, their knowledge has expanded yes, but lets delete everything and start over
[00:18] Delta: wouldn't we take the same amount of time to figure it out again?
[00:19] Spanky: yea
[00:19] Delta: it's like working your way up, it takes time
[00:19] Spanky: ok
[00:19] Delta: it's complex
[00:20] Delta: I wish I was more knowledgeable in this area
[00:22] Spanky: there's a species of bird that has a unique mating call which it learns from it's parents. some people took eggs of the bird and hatched them away from the parents. the young didnt know the mating call and when females were brought in, they tried to impress but couldnt, a unusually small percent succeeded. those that did succeed they left with the parents and over the period of 4 or 5 generations the birds mating call (keep in mind they've been in captivity separated from the natural birds) was the same as that of the natural birds. if that's not evoloution... i dont know what is
[00:22] Spanky: thats the same with us really
[00:23] Spanky: knowledge is shared and passed along and in species of ANIMALS that do that, evolution happens faster
[00:23] Spanky: languages have improved, knowledge has improved, skills have improved
[00:24] Spanky: is it hard to say that our bodies improve along with our minds? to become capable of what we want/need to do?
[00:24] Spanky: we look the same as our parents, thats not proof that evolution is non-existant
[00:24] Spanky: if you want to be right, we really aren't animals
[00:25] Spanky: we have no need or drive to evolove when we have everything we need
[00:25] Spanky: there's nothing to improve
[00:26] Delta: yeah, but this isn't evolution in the sense that are physical appearance is changing
[00:26] Delta: Are minds may have always had this capability
[00:26] Spanky: it might be
[00:26] Spanky: our bodies might be changing, who knows
[00:26] Delta: I still have 10 fingers and taos
[00:26] Spanky: how large was the average heart 1000 years ago compared to today?
[00:26] Spanky: what about lung capacity
[00:27] Spanky: we dont know because we couldnt measure
[00:27] Spanky: we dont know how much we've changed, that's not proof that we havent
[00:27] Spanky: even then, 1000 years isnt that long of a time
[00:27] Spanky: i'm sure we're plenty different from adam and eve
[00:27] Delta: are bodies can adapt, that doesn't mean it's evolution
[00:28] Spanky: lol
[00:28] Spanky: that IS evolution
[00:29] Spanky: Adaptation is the evolutionary process whereby an organism becomes better able to live in its habitat or habitats
[00:29] Delta: I wish I knew the difference between micro-evolution and this
[00:29] Delta: Ok, why would an animal need a brain like ours?
[00:29] Delta: if they can make it as is
[00:30] Spanky: exactly, why would it?
[00:30] Delta: right
[00:30] Spanky: i dont get your point
[00:30] Delta: so why do we have one?
[00:30] Spanky: lol sneaky
[00:30] Spanky: why do snakes lay eggs
[00:30] Spanky: i dont know
[00:30] Delta: yeah
[00:30] Spanky: cuz they do
[00:30] Delta: exactly
[00:31] Delta: we are things the way they are?
[00:31] Delta: Random chance
[00:31] Delta: that's the best we can do
[00:31] Spanky: it's not random
[00:31] Delta: that's what evolution is
[00:31] Spanky: it's thousands of years of improvements
[00:31] Spanky: evolution isn't random
[00:32] Delta: I don't get how any of this makes sense
[00:35] Delta:: Why are we the only things on earth that the brain capacity to even talk about this?
[00:35] Delta:: That makes no sense from an evolutionary point of view
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I solved the problem of evolution years ago, its simple. We were put here by aliens. People have attributed "God" to these aliens.
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Science suggests evolution depends mostly of a action-reaction cell behavior. In ancient knowledge, evolution has been said to act through the balanced mix of a third energy-based component, to which humanity called "Nature Energy". Starting on the absolute that each human being possess Yin and Yan; --thus a complete chackra flow--, it is reasonable to conclude evolution is forced upon our vessels. Through said logically explained theory, a human's path was of purity. Become one with nature. Complete animal metamorphosis. How senseful can this be, you may be wondering?
Action-Reaction
Energy-Balance
Human-Animal
Can you see the pattern? Through the notion that evolution is forced and not endorsed, a reaction becomes an action. Balance becomes energetically sustainable and inconstant. Animals become one within the form of humans. What reason leads me to twist the riddle further up, and how does it still makes sense, regardless? Simple. Look at it this way; If I force you to walk towards a celled lion, unarmed and left with your own corpse alone, to fight for the survival of your specie, what is it that it's truly happening? Stepwise:
1) You move. You walk towards the cell. What was once a reaction to my demands is now an action of your own.
2) The balance of what you once had and controlled has been exposed to the circumstances/energy that flows around you. What would have been a obvious fight between you and a lion can change due to the perception of outter energy; through momentos. You now balance Energy within yourself and your surroundings to better fit specific situations you encounter yourself with.
3) You are a human. However true as that might be, if presented in a certain habitat, against certain enemies, you will adapt. You will become an animal-in-command, and act/think like one alike. It's not a switch you can plug and that's it; It's something you are forced to --and adapt to.
Conclusively, ---and disregarding the explanation of Ancient knowledge--- humans, as animals, do evolve. Both physically and psychologically. Adaption is not only the first step to evolution, as it also is -by far- the best known among Earth's history. Denying so is the same as saying black hair and blond hair, even though regarded differently and of divergent looks, own the same properties.
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millions of years of physical and mental 'improvement' and theres war for oil, poverty while others live in billion dollar mansions, no american healthcare (hehe)
in the 6000 years of mankind, thats 6000 years of war how come we haven't evolved away from it? surely that would be an improvement....
Several reasons, money and power to name 2.
if we came from apes, why are there still apes around? why didnt they become 'improved' why hasnt the 'human' changed? where the dominant species, not cos our strength or anything physical but because we have the ability of reason, something that u could not evolve
It's called a common ancestor. An ancient ancestor of which we AND chips evolved from. Ardipithecus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardipithecus) As I said to Delta, how do you know we haven't changed? Where's the proof that average bone size/density hasn't changed? Or how about average heart size? Lung capacity? Evolution doesn't happen in a couple generations, it happens in thousands of years. It's said we are the way we are because we have a larger cerebral cortex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_cortex) than other animals. This allows us to do pretty much everything we do on a daily basis. This is a physical attributed which evolved.
if we all came from the same source we would all have the same thinking capacity...
but then how can something without the ability to reason ever reason with themselves to evolve?
You don't will yourself to evolve. What you do in your life affects your body physically with muscle and bone size. I'd say more but I can't make my point and make it sound good.
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GAH I kinda wanna get involved but I think I'm just gonna watch this one.
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I usualy love a good argument but this is a topic that I don't know much about. It's fun to see the arguments though.
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AJ, don't bother getting involved in the discussion, it's only a forum ::)
Killaman, you don't have to know everything in order to have a valid opinion.
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Unless you are in a debate with me. Then if your opinion isn't well researched I don't care :P
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It's called a common ancestor. An ancient ancestor of which we AND chips evolved from. Ardipithecus As I said to Delta...
How much can you really tell from some bones that have been in the ground? How much of this is fact, and how much of it is theory from hopeful scientists? Also there's a flaw in your source, you can't put any faith into what Wikipedia says. I've read stuff that says the dating has been inconclusive, and the fossils were badly crushed and damaged. And the only real thing they have to go on are digital reconstructions. Also they only have a few fragments of bone found over a large area. And the toe bone, that they say suggests that the creature walks upright, was found over 10 miles away from the rest of the fossils and dated a few hundred thousand years apart.
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How can you put faith into a book that has been translated hundreds of times and some times the translations were worse than google translator! In fact Shakespeare translated the bible at one point.
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you can't put any faith into what Wikipedia says
Tell that to Jimmy. Also, I didn't hear about it there first. I would link you to the documentary but you probably wouldn't watch it.
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It's Wikipedia, anyone can write something on there, does that make it true?
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Ought to love how every one ignores my post;
My oh my.
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Ought to love how every one ignores my post;
My oh my.
You use big words.
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Ought to love how every one ignores my post;
My oh my.
I don't disagree with it so I really have nothing to say about it.
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It's so hard to read what you're saying but I'll try to answer.
Nobody helps anybody evolve. It's not as extreme as you're putting it. Evolution is adaptation over thousands of years to an evironment and it's surroundings. An insect-eating bird probably found that bugs nest inside limbs and whatnot and he can get at them. Over time, the beak gets larger and stronger and more suited to the birds movements (longer and skinny to get deep in or larger and pointed to pick away at stuff). It doesn't explode/die and think "wish I had a better beak", that's ignorant. If you're going to be involved in a conversation, at least bring some common sense.
Fish jumping out of water... Ever see the flying fish? The only way for them to escape the predators is to fly. Look it up.
Evidence of human changes, I don't have it either way. Nobody does. That's what I'm saying, we don't know either way if it's been a constant for the last 2000 years or if anything has changed.
I don't get your car comment.
People being exactly the same eh? I guess you've never heard of Negros. We lost the skin pigment because we moved out of Africa into higher latitudes where there's less sun, thus to intake more, we turned white. No this didn't happen overnight, we're still talking thousands of years. There's still blacks because they came directly from Africa recently (last couple hundred years, a lot of the slave stuff) and they simply haven't had enough time to change. This is of course one extreme example, there's many other races with different attributes, I'm sure you've heard of some stereotypes.
For the seeds and emu, I've said twice it's thousands of years. Pretty much impossible for something significant to change from the parent to the offspring.
I think your last comment is silly. Whether it's meant to be or not, I don't know but I'm not going to respond to it.
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lol I like the choice of the word mutation instead of adaptation :) Makes it sound worse. Reminds me of those amateur 9/11 was an inside job youtube movies that use scary music and bad sounding complex terms.
Anyway, I read it. I've never heard about that specific bird, I've never disected it, and I'm not an ornithologist. You've found 1 example that stumps me. Congrats. The only thing I can say is that you don't have a way to back up "God made it".
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Let's be careful not to say "GOD IS RIGHT" or "evolution is 100% factual". Ok?
Adaptation isn't different, it is a crucial part to evolution. Look up the definition of "mutation" from a non-biased (no God or evolution sites) source and you'll see that it is a negative "process".
I don't see how that quote gets anyone anywhere. Valve sizes can change in size to allow flow. Think about a garden hose then think about a fire truck hose. Bit of a difference in terms of GPM.
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No it doesn't. Climate changes slowly, about on the path that evolution would follow (makes sense for evolution to follow close to that). When climate DOES change fast, yea species and vegetation are wiped out, it happens. Animals don't need to evolve in 1 day to catch prey, because an uncatchable prey doesn't just magically appear and there are things to eat besides the un-catchable prey. Also, if the prey evolves tactics, the predator can obviously see that and evolve as well, just many steps behind.
Adaptation isn't putting on a coat...
Check the definition of mutation.
You seem narrow-minded, try to open up a bit, maybe learn some more about what goes on in the world. I'm not talking about learning about evolution, I'm not going to shove a "theory" down your throat but animals behaviors are facts, there's no arguing that.
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P.S:. I never said I trusted or even agreed with Ancient theories (Energy-based, etc). I don't. I used it to prove evolution is within the roots of the most pure knowledge of humanity; that's it has never truly been something logic would have ever questioned.
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i love it when people who dont beleive in the bible call us narrow minded
Where did I say "us" (christians?) were narrow minded? I said you were. I'm not saying you're (or your religion is) wrong either, that would be wrong of me. I just think there's a lot of people that follow it blindly without knowing much else. It can be downright scary to form an opinion on something while only knowing one side of the argument.
Anyway, ever hear about the peppered moth?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth#Evolution
Oh my xxx, Wikipedia can't be trusted, use this:
http://animals.about.com/cs/evolution/a/aa090901a.htm
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lol wings aren't skin. I've never done that to a goldfish but I'm imagining that it's due to the lack of UV and vitamin e although I don't know if they produce that. Yea, chameleons have that ability but the last time I checked, moths aren't chameleons. The moths didn't change their color, the light ones got eaten when the trees became dark, thus the darker ones survived more and replaced the population. The moths don't know, it would be like you getting killed and not knowing it was coming. You don't evolve, the rest of the world's population's attributes continue to spread while yours... are gone. Predators pick the weakest, easy to spot prey, while the stronger and faster live on to spread their attributes.
This is why I say you're narrow minded, you just haven't learned. You think evolution is 1 animal changing in a lifetime and if it doesn't it dies. You're also humanizing it which doesn't work.
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Neither theories can really be proven. Evolution is just the theory that over time things change. We haven't really seen any large scale change in things since evolution was discovered. According to the Bible, God has interfered with things on earth, but the large period of time since then has clouded the facts. So all we really have to go on is the Bible.
Since the theory of evolution directly contradicts the Bible, it's not possible to believe in both the Bible and evolution. And in the end it doesn't matter which one I believed in, because I'll be dead.
Does the theory of evolution make sense to me, yes, somewhat. But there are still many things left to theory. Like how life began, no one really knows because no one was there. And there's still the really complex fact of how something knows it needs to change? What prompts these changes, and how are they so perfect in their design? How does evolution know that in order to fight gravity, you need an equal and opposite reaction, which comes from the flapping of wings? Is evolution intelligent, does it remember what works and what doesn't? Why did that amino acid that arrived on that meteor so long ago choose to change? What made it change? What was the influence on it to grow into what is now everything that is alive? Why are there still simple organisms if evolution is always bettering things? We depend on things like bacteria more than people know, why haven't they evolved into something as complex as a human yet. Did evolution see that we needed something to stay as a simple as a bacteria? Or was the environment overran with them to the point that other things had to evolve in order to survive? Maybe things only evolve when they need to, but how do they know when they need to? They don't have a complex brain like a human, and even a human can barely adapt to changes in the environment. Something has to prompt these changes. If I chop my arm off, and my children's children do the same, will we eventually gain the ability to regrow that arm? Will our bodies get the point overtime? Arms are critical to survival, so I would assume, under the theory of evolution, that eventually we would gain the ability to grow said arm back.
It all seems too easy. Over countless years we evolve, yeah got that part. The most that has changed in humans over the last 2000 years, has been are ability to share knowledge. I wouldn't call that evolving in the context that evolution would present. More like, since America, the world has taken leaps and bounds.
So is evolution all knowing? How does it know what gravity is? How does it know how to counteract its forces? What defines a wing? And how did evolution over countless years seem to figure out what took humans, that have an actual brain, thousands of years to figure out? Evolution to be suggests the presences of an intelligent force be it a god, or what have you.
I don't know, Spanky, tell me how evolution figures this stuff out? And how does it know when its figured it out?
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Delta, you bring up a lot of good questions. While I wouldn't call myself smart or all-knowing, I know a couple of unique things and I can reason so I'll try to explain at least some of the things you've mentioned. Also we can talk about God and we can talk about evolution but again neither of us can undeniably prove one way or another. We can just explain and understand.
So all we really have to go on is the Bible.
Observations as well for evolution. I'll tell you why I don't trust the Bible. If it was written on total truth (I'll cover this in a sec), it had to have been translated and altered. I highly doubt it was originally written as it exists today. I do realize that revisions happen and people's accounts can be added to the original version but who verifies those accounts? Today, knowledge can go through a lot of checks to make sure it's accurate. Now to the truth part, with our developed brains it can get very lonely thinking that we live such a emotional and far-reaching life and then when we die, that's it. I'll admit, that's pretty hard to swallow and it flat out sucks. I wish I could live forever but that's not possible as our bodies age but spiritually (totally bogus word) it would be nice to have my mind forever. It seems highly possible to me that the Bible is fiction. People getting depressed, thinking there's no real reason to live and it doesn't matter what you do in your life (especially way back then). Now wait, people start saying that there's this guy that walked the earth and spoke of God. Now you have purpose, now you should do good and lead a good life, appreciate your maker and fellow man. I think the Bible can give people purpose, in fact I know it does. It's not a bad thing at all but it's gotten a little out of hand. Saying that there's a reason to live and a reason to do good, that's great but it's too complex now. It's conflicting science and doing things it was never intended to do.[/quote]
Does the theory of evolution make sense to me, yes, somewhat. But there are still many things left to theory. Like how life began, no one really knows because no one was there.
How life began... I can't tell you, I just don't know for sure. However there's a pretty good idea of it here: http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3717
Summarized:
From what I understand, when the Earth was just forming, it was a hot core, the surface had cooled a bit in some areas forming rock along side of water and other elements. There were a lot more asteroids, rocks and whatnot floating around in space and Earth didn't really have it's atmosphere 100% yet. So gravity doing what it does, pulls these rocks in. With the atmosphere just forming, there's less friction so you get a faster velocity from one of those rocks. Now I can't remember what elements are needed but heat and energy is part of it which is what a rock brings when it's flying towards Earth. Anyway, you get the right elements smashing together and get this, you get an Amino Acid. Amino acids (building blocks of life) have been produced in lab experiments simulating the shock of a meteor impact. Deep sea Black Smoker Chimneys produce very high pressure(deep sea pressures) very hot (volcanic vents) mineral rich (sulfur compounds) environments protected from UV rays by thousands of feet of water. Energy provided by heat and,later, chemosynthesis. This is the perfect environment for bio-genesis.
And there's still the really complex fact of how something knows it needs to change? What prompts these changes, and how are they so perfect in their design? How does evolution know that in order to fight gravity, you need an equal and opposite reaction, which comes from the flapping of wings? Is evolution intelligent, does it remember what works and what doesn't?
Nothing knows it needs to change. I can explain it like this; certain athletes have certain larger muscles. Football players can have big legs, baseball players have big arms and such. This is the building of muscle. This is 1 generation. Imagine that baseball player's son playing baseball and his son and his son's son. Keep going for a few hundred or thousand years or maybe more. Because they use their arms more, you would see differences starting to appear. For example, larger veins/arteries to power the muscles. Larger bones to handle the force. Maybe even longer arms. Repetitive actions, the need to do something and pushing your body to the limit in order to accomplish that is basically evolution. A couple hundred generations after that initial baseball player and you might see the latest "revision" as naturally growing large arms, even if he doesn't play baseball. It's the same reason why people can be genetically tall, short, have larger or smaller features. There was a need and over many generations that need now has an attribute. Again, this isn't racist but I have to touch on the white vs black thing again. We are white because our skin needed to absorb more sunlight since we started moving out of Africa into higher latitudes where there, by location, is less sun. We are white because we evolved. Black people haven't because they live in Africa still. Some were brought over for slavery and that's why we see so many established (several generations of) black people in America.
For flight and formation of wings it could be something as simple as webbing between fingers. Wing structures in bats are very similar to hands. A bat looks similar to a bird so there you go. For initial flight, you could assume an animal wanted to jump from tree to tree or something. As it did that more and more (like the flying squirrel), the squirrels or whatever animal that had abnormally larger quantities of webbing would be better, thus natural selection kicks in and more and more of them have more and more webbing.
Why did that amino acid that arrived on that meteor so long ago choose to change? What made it change? What was the influence on it to grow into what is now everything that is alive? Why are there still simple organisms if evolution is always bettering things? We depend on things like bacteria more than people know, why haven't they evolved into something as complex as a human yet. Did evolution see that we needed something to stay as a simple as a bacteria?
Pretty good question. I don't know the answer and I can't think of a logical answer. It could just be that they don't have a need to change or can't change.
Maybe things only evolve when they need to, but how do they know when they need to? They don't have a complex brain like a human, and even a human can barely adapt to changes in the environment. Something has to prompt these changes.
I think you're right on the first part but the second I already went over. Nothing knows it needs to change, it just knows the limits of it's body. Evolution doesn't drive, it's being driven by the needs of the animal, repetitive movements and a lot of time.
If I chop my arm off, and my children's children do the same, will we eventually gain the ability to regrow that arm? Will our bodies get the point overtime? Arms are critical to survival, so I would assume, under the theory of evolution, that eventually we would gain the ability to grow said arm back.
It seems possible. Maybe that's how other animals did it. Maybe a lot of those lizards (are they lizards, I can't remember the animal that does that) got pecked at by birds and whatnot and while they could survive with 3 limbs, things would be a lot better if they had the original 4. This may be a case of a problem mutation that was actually beneficial and not the cause of physical harm.
It all seems too easy. Over countless years we evolve, yeah got that part. The most that has changed in humans over the last 2000 years, has been are ability to share knowledge. I wouldn't call that evolving in the context that evolution would present. More like, since America, the world has taken leaps and bounds.
What needs to be changed? Sure there's human wants like wings and an extra arm or something but it's not crucial to survival nor do we stress the need for a new feature over several generations. I'm sure we still evolve but probably not that much. You don't know if we have or haven't changed in the last 2000 years.
So is evolution all knowing? How does it know what gravity is? How does it know how to counteract its forces? What defines a wing? And how did evolution over countless years seem to figure out what took humans, that have an actual brain, thousands of years to figure out?
What took us thousands of years to figure out?
Evolution to me suggests the presences of an intelligent force be it a god, or what have you. I don't know, Spanky, tell me how evolution figures this stuff out? And how does it know when its figured it out?
Yea it still can I guess. It's hard to describe but evolution isn't a force or a power, evolution is a need for change.
How does it figure out how to wire a brain?
It doesn't. The brain probably started off small, an automatic way to regulate necessary systems such as the heart and lungs and it grew from there.
in the end it doesn't matter which one I believed in, because I'll be dead.
Yup.
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Ought to love how every one ignores my post;
My oh my.
You use big words.
:D :D
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Skrewup, it's funny that all your links come from religious sites that would definitely be biased.
Why couldn't we evolve the capacity of thought? The computers we have can match (I can't do 12 things at once or draw 3D graphics that fast), but also can't match because they're built for different reasons and with obviously different parts.
Animals evolve at different rates. The reason we have the ability to think is that we have a larger cerebral cortex (pretty sure I brought this up before).
While I realize there's cooler climates in Australia, there's probably many climates that mimic Africa. It has to do with the amount of sunlight received by the skin.
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Since I was sick the last few days, I haven't had a chance to reply to your post. Or should I say I haven't felt like it. :) But let me see if I can reply to a few points here.
I'll tell you why I don't trust the Bible. If it was written on total truth (I'll cover this in a sec), it had to have been translated and altered. I highly doubt it was originally written as it exists today. I do realize that revisions happen and people's accounts can be added to the original version but who verifies those accounts?
Translation isn't a solid basis for not believing in the Bible. There are original translations of the Bible out there. The Bible was written by God through men. Or so the Bible tells us. So if God wrote the bible, then I believe he would direct in things like translation. But, there are translations out there that are pretty bad. Some translations attempt to modernize the Bible taking a lot of the old English and changing it, which can sometimes change the context.
I think the Bible can give people purpose, in fact I know it does. It's not a bad thing at all but it's gotten a little out of hand. Saying that there's a reason to live and a reason to do good, that's great but it's too complex now. It's conflicting science and doing things it was never intended to do.
Conflicting science? Which came first, Spanky? I'd say science is conflicting with the Bible, not the other way around. :)
For flight and formation of wings it could be something as simple as webbing between fingers. Wing structures in bats are very similar to hands. A bat looks similar to a bird so there you go. For initial flight, you could assume an animal wanted to jump from tree to tree or something. As it did that more and more (like the flying squirrel), the squirrels or whatever animal that had abnormally larger quantities of webbing would be better, thus natural selection kicks in and more and more of them have more and more webbing.
I know evolution is the process of gradual change. Where we slowly add things that we need. But, you still need to know where you're going before you can get there. I think programming is a good example of this. You start writing a program without knowledge of what you're doing, or where you're going. The only possible outcome is a pile of dysfunctional code. And without the ability to learn you wouldn't ever figure it out.
Our bodies contain rules. They know how to construct themselves from these rules. They follow these rules when preforming any action. What happens when our body tries something that's not in the rule book? You get a pile of dysfunctional matter that is destructive called a tumor.
So is evolution all knowing? How does it know what gravity is? How does it know how to counteract its forces? What defines a wing? And how did evolution over countless years seem to figure out what took humans, that have an actual brain, thousands of years to figure out?
What took us thousands of years to figure out?
How to fly.
How does it figure out how to wire a brain?
It doesn't. The brain probably started off small, an automatic way to regulate necessary systems such as the heart and lungs and it grew from there.
So are you saying that the first brain was already started? Because I'm pretty sure for evolution to make sense it would have had to start from nothing. But then, without an idea of where it was going, it wouldn't have the ability to create itself.
in the end it doesn't matter which one I believed in, because I'll be dead.
Yup.
Good, glad you agree. Now, how does the bible conflict with something that doesn't matter? Honestly, if you're right and heaven and hell are just things we've imagined, then I don't lose anything by believing in the Bible. Neither idea can really be proven, so you can't really say I'm ignorant for believing one over the other.
Skrewup, it's funny that all your links come from religious sites that would definitely be biased.
Why would a religious based site definitely be biased? While there are so called "Christian" people at there that portray Christianity in a bad light. Christianity teaches the importance of honesty, and the value of truth. I wouldn't be so fast to just say all religious people are closed minded and ignorant.
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Skrewup, it's funny that all your links come from religious sites that would definitely be biased.
Why would a religious based site definitely be biased? While there are so called "Christian" people at there that portray Christianity in a bad light. Christianity teaches the importance of honesty, and the value of truth. I wouldn't be so fast to just say all religious people are closed minded and ignorant.
Why would a religious site be biased on the topic of evolution? Because evolution goes against the bible. It's as simple as that.
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I know translation isn't a reason not to believe but you just said that things can be taken out of context.
I think science has been around a long time. With that said, they're conflicting each other.
You're still thinking of evolution as something that we or our bodies control and while our actions/needs can control it, it's not "oh I'll add a limb here". You're also thinking in extremes as evolution is just random happenings and it can only screw things up and create tumors. It's not, it's changes demanded by needs. Like I said about the baseball player, he's not randomly going to grow a larger leg. What he uses, grows. If that happens over generations then changes to benefit and improve that area of the body take place. That's evolution. It's not mental wishing on the part of the animal or random changes that the body tries out. Tumors aren't (pretty sure of this) genetic, they're a rapid change brought on by something in the environment. Chemicals and radiation do this, not evolution over dozens of generations.
I'm not saying that the brain was already started, I'm saying that it, at one time, was a means to do basic things like control heartbeat and since it was beneficial, could grow and allow more things to happen. Again, we don't mentally create the evolutionary changes. Our needs, over many generations, dictate them.
Why wouldn't a religious site be biased? If it conflicts with their ideas, why would they be FOR it? Of course they're against it and that's the perfect place to go if you're against it. Christianity may teach the importance of truth but who's truth? I've never said all religious people are closed-minded or ignorant.
*EDIT*
Ah, Killaman :) You beat me to it.
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Also, you say "I don't lose anything by believing in the Bible". I say, yes you do. You, and many many others believing it and doing things by it. You don't have to believe in God to have christian values. Look at me :P But really, I don't want to drag another topic into this but it ties in with what you believe. You've told me directly that you're not concerned about the environment or your impact on it because God will take care of it. While I'm being dramatic, there's a pretty big christian population out there and if they all think like you, losing Earth might be a little bit of a loss. Not to mention your Sundays.
Ultimately, God is just an excuse to be good and do good things when people should do it anyway.
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I know what evolution is. I stated the definition before I started talking about it. And you say that these changes are out of our control. What has control then? Is it an external force? Evolution is the process of gradual change. Meaning somehow we come up with things we need and some how we find the information of how to form it. DNA is what holds the key information in forming must things. How can a creature write new code for itself? I keep asking how something knows it needs to change, but I guess that's the wrong question. Instead I'll ask, how does it know how to change? Like I said, what defines a wing? This need to change, it has to come from something, whether it's a subconscious need to change or some external force. The fact still remains, you can't add something to yourself or your species over countless generation without a clear understanding of what you're actually adding.
I don't see how evolution would ever achieve anything more than a pile of dysfunctional matter.
Why wouldn't a religious site be biased? If it conflicts with their ideas, why would they be FOR it? Of course they're against it and that's the perfect place to go if you're against it. Christianity may teach the importance of truth but who's truth? I've never said all religious people are closed-minded or ignorant.
True, I'm sure there are biased people. Usually people who are biased don't get much credit. I didn't read the source, but it either brought of points of why evolution might be wrong, or it was ignorant and foolish. Either way, I think it is unfair to say that all Christians' are biased. It's possible to believe something is wrong without being biased.
Also, you say "I don't lose anything by believing in the Bible". I say, yes you do. You, and many many others believing it and doing things by it. You don't have to believe in God to have christian values. Look at me :P But really, I don't want to drag another topic into this but it ties in with what you believe. You've told me directly that you're not concerned about the environment or your impact on it because God will take care of it. While I'm being dramatic, there's a pretty big christian population out there and if they all think like you, losing Earth might be a little bit of a loss. Not to mention your Sundays.
Ultimately, God is just an excuse to be good and do good things when people should do it anyway.
True, I do believe God will keep us from destroying ourselves. I don't believe we're really changing our environment that much. I think there's a lot of scared people out there that think we are making a profound change. Sure we add carbon dioxide to the air, but don't trees and such need it? Doesn't more of it benefit them?
Spanky, I could cite several times where you have said it doesn't matter what happens, because you'll be dead. Why are you so concerned for the earth? I think the earth will take care of itself. meaning when this place because uninhabitable for life, it'll go back to the way it was before that meteor hit it and started infecting it with the decease that is life. But who knows what the earth thinks, It's a rock without feelings.
I don't waste my Sunday. I could very well blow that time smoking. I enjoy the time I get with friends and to hang out with people. Sure I might sit for an hour listening. But think of it this way, I can better my listening skills.
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I know what evolution is. I stated the definition before I started talking about it. And you say that these changes are out of our control. What has control then? Is it an external force? Evolution is the process of gradual change. Meaning somehow we come up with things we need and some how we find the information of how to form it. DNA is what holds the key information in forming must things. How can a creature write new code for itself? I keep asking how something knows it needs to change, but I guess that's the wrong question. Instead I'll ask, how does it know how to change? Like I said, what defines a wing? This need to change, it has to come from something, whether it's a subconscious need to change or some external force. The fact still remains, you can't add something to yourself or your species over countless generation without a clear understanding of what you're actually adding.
I don't see how evolution would ever achieve anything more than a pile of dysfunctional matter.
I don't know. I'm not too proficient at coding DNA myself so I can't really answer that. It's probably similar to how radiation or viruses change animal's DNA but in a more organized manner. The problem is though that all we see are successful animals, we don't see the screwups because they died off.
True, I'm sure there are biased people. Usually people who are biased don't get much credit. I didn't read the source, but it either brought of points of why evolution might be wrong, or it was ignorant and foolish. Either way, I think it is unfair to say that all Christians' are biased. It's possible to believe something is wrong without being biased.
Yea there's unbiased sources but I'm not going to go to an Intel fanboy to learn how bad AMD is :)
True, I do believe God will keep us from destroying ourselves. I don't believe we're really changing our environment that much. I think there's a lot of scared people out there that think we are making a profound change. Sure we add carbon dioxide to the air, but don't trees and such need it? Doesn't more of it benefit them?
Spanky, I could cite several times where you have said it doesn't matter what happens, because you'll be dead. Why are you so concerned for the earth? I think the earth will take care of itself. meaning when this place because uninhabitable for life, it'll go back to the way it was before that meteor hit it and started infecting it with the decease that is life. But who knows what the earth thinks, It's a rock without feelings.
It's just plain lazy to think that. I don't give a crap what happens to the earth when I'm dead since I probably won't have kids. That doesn't mean that I want to live in a shit hole just because you think somebody else (God) will take care of it all. I didn't want to drag that topic into the conversation so I'll end it there.
I don't waste my Sunday. I could very well blow that time smoking. I enjoy the time I get with friends and to hang out with people. Sure I might sit for an hour listening. But think of it this way, I can better my listening skills.
You are such an annoying optimist :)
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I don't know. I'm not too proficient at coding DNA myself so I can't really answer that. It's probably similar to how radiation or viruses change animal's DNA but in a more organized manner. The problem is though that all we see are successful animals, we don't see the screwups because they died off.
A virus doesn't really change DNA. A virus usually attacks a cell and injects its own DNA, then uses the cell to reproduce itself lots of times until the cell explodes from all the little viruses. At least I think that's how they work. They don't really take over your body, They just use it to reproduce, destroying cells in the process.
Radiation is like a bad memory stick in your computer. It corrupts the data and leaves it in an altered state.
Maybe the the evolutionary mistakes did die off. But where are the fossils?
Yea there's unbiased sources but I'm not going to go to an Intel fanboy to learn how bad AMD is :)
True, but the same can happen if you go to an Intel site, they might be unfairly biased towards AMD. Is there a place where you can truly get unbiased information?
It's just plain lazy to think that. I don't give a crap what happens to the earth when I'm dead since I probably won't have kids. That doesn't mean that I want to live in a shit hole just because you think somebody else (God) will take care of it all. I didn't want to drag that topic into the conversation so I'll end it there.
Lazy? I never said I wouldn't do my part to save the earth. In fact the idea of generating most of our power from wind fascinates me. Same with solar, since power consumption is the leading cause in CO2 emissions I can see these things being a major step in the right direction. But what I don't think we need to do is sacrifice things to save our environment. We can't demand a company change the way it does something just because we think they're hurting the environment. Like I'm not giving up my flush toilet because it wastes water.
While I think God will take care of the earth. I do believe God has commanded us to take care of the earth. Now, identifying what is bad for the earth is open to interpretation. All things come from the earth, things that hurt the earth don't hurt the earth, they hurt us. The earth doesn't need us, we need it. So lets stop talking about the earth for a second and start talking about ourselves. :)
You are such an annoying optimist
I'm a better listener than you and you know it. :P
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Forget I mentioned viruses. Still, radiation alters DNA. If an outside force can do it, why can't evolution do it in favor of the animal?
It seems like the discussion is dying. I'd hoped more people would get involved =\
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I doubt people even bothered reading our epically long posts.
I don't know a whole lot about radiation. But I don't think it really adds to our DNA. Like I used the "bad memory module" analogy. Just like bad memory, it deletes, and corrupts information.
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I wanted to, but language barrier isn't helping any.
And lacking time is not good either; for both reading and writing.
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I doubt people even bothered reading our epically long posts.
I've read most of them. But most of the stuff is over my head. I don't really know much about the subject.