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Community => The Lounge => Topic started by: soupcakes on Sunday, February 19, 2012, 05:57:11 AM

Title: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: soupcakes on Sunday, February 19, 2012, 05:57:11 AM
So this debate might upset some... but i thought it was an interesting topic. So if you live in North America, you have probably heard  'we killed Osama Bin Ladin in a raid, and threw his body over-board into the sea'... Well, I found links claiming Osama was dead years before the usa claimed. Apperently a couple cia agents and the friends of osama claim this....

now, when I hear accusations like this, even from CIA agents, I ask myself, if they were lying, why? what would they have to gain from it?...so far, drawing a blank.

Now I ask myself, what would we have to gain if we really didnt kill Osama, but claimed we did... and all i can think is more support for the war from Americans? Obama kept his promise he made at the beginning of his campaign, maybe help re-election? Closure? like all the lives lost weren't for capital gain and control?

and not going to lie, I had suspicions about the full story when I heard we got him, but just threw him over board. No pics, just our word.


sources:
http://dailytimes.com.ng/article/%E2%80%9Cbin-laden-died-five-years-ago%E2%80%9D-cia-agent

http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=626837

http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/05/18/50450017.html


and just another piece of info that kind of backs, that perhaps, it was all staged: Reports of the Osama confession videos of 9/11 being fake

sources:
http://undebunked.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/ex-c-i-a-officials-admit-to-making-fake-bin-laden-tapes/

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osamatape.html


http://infowars.net/articles/february2007/190207Osama_tape.htm

http://cutdc.com/2011/05/05/expert-bin-laden-confession-is-bogus-former-cia-officials-faked-bin-laden-video/


also admit they were planning on making fake video of saddam

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/05/cia_group_had_wacky_ideas_to_d.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1281480/CIA-plot-air-fake-Saddam-Hussein-gay-sex-tape-prior-2003-Iraq-invasion.html


my conclusion is: they are/were only trying to sell the war. make people think its the right thing to do.

soup




Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Go_Cat75 on Monday, February 20, 2012, 02:54:48 AM
what did killling osama do? do you guys really think he was irreplaceable? in 10 years I have no doubt he became more of a face behind terrorism and not a terrorist leader' as/if his health declined and he became the most wanted man in the western world I doubt he would have remained the king pin, u killed 1 man of a global organisation, its like killing the president... you lose his unique opinion/view but the usa wont crash from it
Well they Killed of Rudd (kinda) and we got Julia in Oz and things have been going down ever since.  Now Rudd has come back from the dead and there is another show down.  I think this time Abbott will be the only one standing.  Everyone is expendable.

You will never know fully what happened to Bin Laden just like the twin towers.  Allot of american's still think Hussain did it..
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 03:11:17 AM
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 12:57:43 PM
In my opinion it doesn't matter if Osama is dead or not or when he died because he was just a pawn for the New World Order. Much like Gaddafi who was... not that bad of a leader. And Saddam who was made out to be much worse than he actually was by the media.

Nothing that goes on in the world is actually as it seems. Don't trust the media, don't trust the politicians. Except a certain politician I support but he doesn't need to be named here because another topic recently turned into a RP2012 thread.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Spanky on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:00:11 PM
just a pawn for the New World Order

Nothing that goes on in the world is actually as it seems. Don't trust the media, don't trust the politicians.

OMFG EVERYBODY RUN FOR YOUR LIVES IT'S UTTER CHAOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:01:57 PM
You can laugh all you want but I'll sit here with my aluminum foil hat and truly believe everything political I'll post.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:08:19 PM
OMFG EVERYBODY RUN FOR YOUR LIVES IT'S UTTER CHAOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THE APOCALYPSE IS NEAR. PROTECT THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN!
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:32:41 PM
I sympathize with most middle-eastern leaders who the US doesn't care for mostly because it usually means that they recognize the new world order (like me) and don't approve of it (like me) and usually their outspoken views on Israel ("I fucking hate Israel" - me) cause the media to make them out to be horrible horrible people and soon their citizens are convinced that they are being mistreated and they don't have the freedoms that other countries elsewhere have (no shit they live in the fucking desert how do you make a good living in the fucking desert) and rise up against the leader.

I don't know the truth to the matters, I shouldn't have said that Gaddafi was a good leader. I should have said that I sympathize with him and find it unfortunate that he was killed.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:41:06 PM
I sympathize with most middle-eastern leaders who the US doesn't care for mostly because it usually means that they recognize the new world order (like me) and don't approve of it (like me) and usually their outspoken views on Israel ("I fucking hate Israel" - me) cause the media to make them out to be horrible horrible people and soon their citizens are convinced that they are being mistreated and they don't have the freedoms that other countries elsewhere have (no shit they live in the fucking desert how do you make a good living in the fucking desert) and rise up against the leader.

I don't know the truth to the matters, I shouldn't have said that Gaddafi was a good leader. I should have said that I sympathize with him and find it unfortunate that he was killed.
I didn't ant to respond seriously to this thread but here it goes.

The funniest part of your post is the part you didn't include, that Libya was actually an ally to the U.S. The U.S. didn't make their citizens hate their government, that's just stupid. The constant reports of "how good the Libyans have it" were proven false by many people who live there. The U.S. didn't conspire to overthrow the Libyan government, that would be a stupid decision on their part.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:42:28 PM
I don't believe I said that "the US made their citizens hate their government". That is just stupid.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:44:02 PM
I don't believe I said that "the US made their citizens hate their government". That is just stupid.
What does this line mean then?

 "cause the media to make them out to be horrible horrible people and soon their citizens are convinced that they are being mistreated and they don't have the freedoms that other countries elsewhere have"

Sounds me like you're saying the western media made the Libyan people want to revolt against their leaders, which is stupid.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:45:24 PM
Western media isn't controlled by US, same organization that controls western media also controls the US.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:47:51 PM
Western media isn't controlled by US, same organization that controls western media also controls the US.
That's being a little paranoid don't ya think?
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:49:51 PM
I sometimes fear that I'll get kidnapped and sent to Guantanamo. That's a little more paranoid, don'tcha think?
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:52:10 PM
I sometimes fear that I'll get kidnapped and sent to Guantanamo. That's a little more paranoid, don'tcha think?
Indeed it is. Your point?
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 13:56:52 PM
You're poking fun at me when I am 100% sure that I am correct and it's kinda frustrating. Somewhere in Israel a Rothschild descendent is sitting on his throne laughing about how he caused the economic fall and turmoil in the world, deviously smiling as he looks toward the future of hand-picked candidates the people had no choice but to elect.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 14:00:35 PM
You're poking fun at me when I am 100% sure that I am correct and it's kinda frustrating. Somewhere in Israel a Rothschild descendent is sitting on his throne laughing about how he caused the economic fall and turmoil in the world, deviously smiling as he looks toward the future of hand-picked candidates the people had no choice but to elect.
:o
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: soupcakes on Monday, February 20, 2012, 14:20:19 PM
<3. I can see AJ has done a some research. You really are my new best friend <3
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 14:33:53 PM
<3. I can see AJ has done a some research. You really are my new best friend <3
If you call looking into nutjob conspiracy theories to be "research" then OK.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: soupcakes on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:06:34 PM
If you call looking into nutjob conspiracy theories to be "research" then OK.

Have you ever tried to debunk this one specifically ? If you do an extensive amount of research in trying to debunk, you would probably find more facts confirming these 'nutjob' theories than disproving anything. (minor example in a case like this: Georgia guide-stones.)

Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:20:24 PM
Have you ever tried to debunk this one specifically ? If you do an extensive amount of research in trying to debunk, you would probably find more facts confirming these 'nutjob' theories than disproving anything. (minor example in a case like this: Georgia guide-stones.)
If I looked around the internet I bet I could find "proof" that the world is flat. The point is that people can spin facts to make whatever outcome they desire. You believe them because they seem to know more about the subject than you, even when they are making stuff up or making BS connections. In turn, they just successfully tricked you into believing a conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:27:14 PM
OHHH THE IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRONY
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:31:05 PM
OHHH THE IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRONY
care to point out said irony? What about saying how conspiracy theories work is ironic?
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:31:43 PM
You're brainwashed.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:32:30 PM
You're brainwashed.
For being skeptical of conspiracy theories? It seems to me like you're the brainwashed one.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:35:05 PM
I really really wish that were true. I don't want to believe any of this shit but the evidence is just overwhelming. The world is an awful place, the only thing that keeps me here is the fear of a worse reality post-life.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: soupcakes on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:38:28 PM
If I looked around the internet I bet I could find "proof" that the world is flat. The point is that people can spin facts to make whatever outcome they desire. You believe them because they seem to know more about the subject than you, even when they are making stuff up or making BS connections. In turn, they just successfully tricked you into believing a conspiracy theory.

sorry i just wanted to be clear,i wasnt talking about what people say or do, i was talking about things that actually exist.... no debate, its just there. such as, the Georgia guide stones.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:46:50 PM
The unseen hand in the music industry, the Bilderberg group, the Bohemian grove...
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:49:08 PM
sorry i just wanted to be clear,i wasnt talking about what people say or do, i was talking about things that actually exist.... no debate, its just there. such as, the Georgia guide stones.
OK, and some weird guy could have just built those to get his own beliefs out. How exactly does that prove anything?
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 15:54:54 PM
http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/occult_dismantling_georgia_guidestones.htm


DON'T believe everything Alex Jones says though. He's probably part of the New World Order who just makes "conspiracy theorists" (hate that term) seem crazy.

*EDIT*

Well that article is pretty useless, I assumed it would be filled with crazy accusations like most InfoWars articles.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 16:02:28 PM
No....... I simply cannot believe that you just posted a link to infowars........

Let's go to a conspiracy theory site to try to prove a conspiracy theory is correct! Either way, nothing was really even in that article.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 16:04:46 PM
OMFG I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU JUST CALLED ME OUT ON SOMETHING THAT I ADDED A DISCLAIMER FOR I BETTER CALL YOU OUT ON THAT TOO BECAUSE THE PROPER WAY TO WIN A DEBATE IS THROUGH ACCUSATION AND BELITTLING
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 16:06:08 PM
OMFG I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU JUST CALLED ME OUT ON SOMETHING THAT I ADDED A DISCLAIMER FOR I BETTER CALL YOU OUT ON THAT TOO BECAUSE THE PROPER WAY TO WIN A DEBATE IS THROUGH ACCUSATION AND BELITTLING
Why would you post something that doesn't support what you want to say though? Isn't that just a waste of a post? Why post it if it wasn't serious?
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 16:10:23 PM
You make the incorrect assumption that I see you as foe in this discussion. I don't really support Alex Jones or InfoWars. I don't like to be handfed my beliefs, I like to develop them on my own.

I myself was unaware of the Georgia Guide Stones and reading the wiki didn't really get me what I wanted to know. I knew that InfoWars would have something to say, so I checked it out. Copy URL, paste URL, submit post... read article, edit in my genuine surprise that it wasn't filled with accusations and suspicion that Alex Jones isn't as trustworthy as most people who listen to his radio show believe. I posted that the article was "pretty useless" to which you responded "nothing was really even in that article". Who's wasting posts now?
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 16:12:53 PM
You make the incorrect assumption that I see you as foe in this discussion. I don't really support Alex Jones or InfoWars. I don't like to be handfed my beliefs, I like to develop them on my own.

I myself was unaware of the Georgia Guide Stones and reading the wiki didn't really get me what I wanted to know. I knew that InfoWars would have something to say, so I checked it out. Copy URL, paste URL, submit post... read article, edit in my genuine surprise that it wasn't filled with accusations and suspicion that Alex Jones isn't as trustworthy as most people who listen to his radio show believe. I posted that the article was "pretty useless" to which you responded "nothing was really even in that article". Who's wasting posts now?
Both of us because this is a useless argument. I was posting under the assumption that you knew what they were. I said they proved nothing and I assumed you posted that to try to show me what they proved. Obviously I was wrong.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 16:16:24 PM
You didn't see the conspiracy angle in the guidestones, as I myself failed to see, and I assumed that we could all be on the same page (even with very different opinions) having read that InfoWars article, which was actually completely useless.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Spanky on Monday, February 20, 2012, 16:34:52 PM
I love how my post spawned a rant between AJ and Killaman :) I didn't bother reading pages 2 & 3. I simply just don't care. You can't change government and to get involved in politics is a fools game. How has it improved your life by knowing (or assuming or believing) what goes on in politics and government? I don't watch the news or keep up to date on politics because neither offer any benefit to me. It's all purely depressing and none of it affects me. Sure prices at the store go up and down but so what? It is what it is and again, you can't change it.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Archeh on Monday, February 20, 2012, 16:41:54 PM
But I want to change it.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Alex on Monday, February 20, 2012, 16:43:08 PM
I love how my post spawned a rant between AJ and Killaman :) I didn't bother reading pages 2 & 3. I simply just don't care. You can't change government and to get involved in politics is a fools game. How has it improved your life by knowing (or assuming or believing) what goes on in politics and government? I don't watch the news or keep up to date on politics because neither offer any benefit to me. It's all purely depressing and none of it affects me. Sure prices at the store go up and down but so what? It is what it is and again, you can't change it.
Not really a rant. No insults were thrown or anything, unless you count calling someone brainwashed to be an insult. Basically all page 3 is so far is a big misunderstanding. :P

It is what it is and again, you can't change it.
Not the best mentality. Can't say you're wrong though.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Spanky on Monday, February 20, 2012, 16:53:49 PM
Not the best mentality. Can't say you're wrong though.

I know. I would like to see change in the world. A lot of change. But I've realized that there's a ton of idiots and a lot of barriers to break through just to get the smallest amount of improvement. Even then, "improvement" is different person to person. You think you're improving something and out of nowhere comes a huge mob of people that are all raged. It's just not worth wasting any part of your life trying to inform yourself or better anything in the government or politics. Once you realize that, you can move onto the important stuff in life.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: soupcakes on Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 02:32:16 AM


OK, and some weird guy could have just built those to get his own beliefs out. How exactly does that prove anything?

Lol, well it wasn't 1 guy. we are talking over 100 tons of stone. Not to mention eight languages engraved on it, and geometrically arranged and have 3 holes that line up with certain stars and the sun. all done anonymously.  And to top it all off, these arent ancient by any means. Now, even in like the 1980s (estimated time they popped up), you needed building permits, contract with people who are building or at very least, a deed to the land which your building it on. But not in this case they are anonymous.

Whoever put it there, obviously wanted it to be heard...doubt they engraved the same 10 lines over and over in eight languages for practice.... and the spot it was put in was very precise. And whoever put this there, had two things, A) Power/influence B) Money.

point: looking at something out of the ordinary, and simply sayin 'oh one weird guy could of put there there' and going on without an ounce of thought more put into it, makes anything easy to disregard....kinda like how OJ got off 'oh the glove didnt fit, no more questions, case closed'.


I'd recommend looking into yourself, look at multiple sources. but heres a non-conspiracy one to start.(hopefully not too biased for ya)

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4198




You can't change government and to get involved in politics is a fools game. How has it improved your life by knowing (or assuming or believing) what goes on in politics and government? I don't watch the news or keep up to date on politics because neither offer any benefit to me. It's all purely depressing and none of it affects me. Sure prices at the store go up and down but so what? It is what it is and again, you can't change it.

1. Think it improved my life greatly. I voice my opinion, when I the Representatives are voting on something i agree or disagree with, i call them, state my opinion and which way i think they should vote. Granted, they dont listen, but if the majority of other callers said the same thing it would cause influence on which way they vote. Usually your representatives wont vote against the people. (although it has happened in the past)

2. I don't care for much news, local news and such is depressing. other than world news. I think its important to know what's happening in the world around you. Without other countries trading with us, we would fall on our faces. And I believe its important to know what future leaders plan on doing and how it will affect us as a whole.

3. Sure, I'm just one person, my point of view is probably worth less than 2 cents. But I'm a pretty strong believer in our constitution, and after sitting back and 'whatevering' my life away like everybody else, things happened that Ive had no clue about. Our constitutional rights were being used as a door mat. And each year, seems we lose more and more. Guess one day, shortly after we invaded Iraq, something happened... somethin felt different.... I started to give a fuck... about the 'why?' the 'how?' and the 'what?'and I am proud to be one that fights to keep what we got, and try and restore what we lost. End this with quotes from some good men.

'What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?'

'The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. '
~Thomas Jefferson

'Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.'
~Benjamin Franklin

edit: sorry for major delayed response, was workin.


Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Spanky on Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 02:51:32 AM
You raise some good points without flaming soupcakes. Props to you for that.

I voice my opinion as well, just in different ways. Most importantly with my dollar. I support what I wish to support and live my life according to what I believe. While I wish others had the same ideals, I can't force that on them. I certainly don't believe calling representatives will do anything and even if it did, they can still be outnumbered by other representatives as far a voting. Without getting into my beliefs, I live in an area where the majority of those around me obviously don't uphold the same reasoning and beliefs that I do. I'm outnumbered in voicing my opinion thus it's pointless. Sure I could rally others that think alike and start a movement but that's a lot of time that cuts into my life and there's no guarantee that things will change. Thus, I just live my life how I choose, supporting what I can with my dollar and living within my beliefs.

I'm opposite of you on the news subject. I think the only news that would have merit is the local news. It's local to your area and is news about what is happening directly around you. With that said, I don't pay any attention to local news but I still think it has more purpose than global news. Global news is just more crap going wrong that you have absolutely no control over. Inflation this, gas prices that. Oh, Iran's got some nukes. Great. Nothing you can do about it. Why be knowledgeable about something depressing when there's nothing you can do to remedy it? Learn something you can actually use in every day life instead.

As for the constitution *shrug* I'm not sure how our rights are being restricted. I have free speach, I can own a gun, I can vote.

For your last quote, to me, it's the same thing as the military. I won't join in but there's plenty of others that will and that's great for them. They're doing what they think is right and ultimately, that's what it's all about. I'd rather enjoy life than try to fix a system that is so fucked up it would be better to start from scratch.


*EDIT*
Cool rocks. I agree with every one of those. We need a lot less people on the planet, especially the stupid ones.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: soupcakes on Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 03:20:47 AM
i respect your beliefs and understand. I live in a pretty laid back community, people from all over getting along in one community. I really enjoy living here. Lot of people with similar views (i know, this community is pretty sweet for me and i would of never guessed I would be so lucky)... and your right, not much you can do about world wide news... just interesting to me, feel its important. and I'm glad you brought the iran having nukes thing up, only because I looked into this right when it hit the news.... turns out in my research, i believe its very unlikely they have nukes, and looking to invade is for greater reasons.... kind of like how we invaded iraq because we 'knew' they had WMD... (funny how history only repeats itself)... even went as far as watchin speaches of Iranian president at a UN meeting... turns out, nothing came out of his mouth saying 'iran is better than america' or 'i hate america, we got nukes'...instead, he openly said they can come look, because it would be stupid for Iran to build 1 or even 10 nukes when theres 500 pointed back at us'... sorry, off topic... but thats why shit like that is important to me.... i have some urge to know the truth behind the media I guess. I guess I also feel compassion for those that are invaded and lose everything, over greed.

umm and rights being lost, its slow, but its sure...

1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF SPEECH
• The Patriot Act broadly expands the official definition of
terrorism, so that many domestic groups that engage in
nonviolent civil disobedience could very well find themselves
labeled as terrorists.
• The Government may now prosecute librarians or keepers
of any other records if they reveal that the government
requested information on their clients or members in the
course of an investigation. It has become a crime for these
individuals to try to safeguard your privacy or to tell you
that you are under investigation.

1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION
• Government agents may now monitor the First Amendment protected
activities of religious and political institutions, and
then infiltrate these groups with no suspicion of criminal
activity. This is a return to domestic spying on law-abiding
religious and political groups.
• You may now be the subject of a government investigation
simply because of the political, activist, or advocacy
groups you are involved in, or the statements you make
within these groups.
1st AMENDMENT RIGHT TO ACCESS
GOVERNMENT INFORMATION
• A U.S. Department of Justice directive actively encourages
federal, state, and local officials to resist and/or limit access
to government records through Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) requests.
• The Government has conducted immigration hearings in
secret behind closed doors. Such proceedings were once
open to the public. Hundreds, if not thousands, of immigrants
have already been deported in secret.


4th AMENDMENT FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE
SEARCHES &SEIZURES
• Law Enforcement authorities may now conduct secret searches and wiretaps in your home or office
without showing “probable cause.” They need only to claim that intelligence gathering is “a significant
purpose” of their intrusion, even when the primary goal is ordinary law enforcement. They may also
monitor where and to whom you send and receive e-mail, or where you go on the Internet, recording
every e-mail address and website you have been in contact with.
• Law Enforcement may now demand any personal records held by any source including your doctor,
employer, accountant, or library. All they have to do is claim that it is related to an investigation into
“terrorism.” The record keepers may not reveal that your records were provided to the government.
• Judicial oversight of secret searches has been effectively minimized. The Patriot Act directs judges to
consent to secret searches based only on the Government’s assertion that a “significant” purpose of
an investigation is gathering information related to “terrorism,” as the government defines it.

http://www.nyclu.org/pdfs/eroding_liberty.pdf

but all thats old news, you should look up the National Defense Authorization Act signed just this year, by yours truely, obama.... all sugar coded for war on terrorism. But what it boils down to, is Anybody, including american citizens, that are deemed terrorist by the government, can be arrested and prosecuted accordingly, with no right to be heard in court or infront of a judge. This is what im talking about when i say our constitutional rights have become a door mat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/01/02/president-obama-signed-the-national-defense-authorization-act-now-what/

sorry for the long ass rant, but thats why this shits important to me. the world outside my mountains.

thanks for reading, educate yourself.

edit: last quote in previous post had nothing to do with joining the military. lol, i wont either. had to do with being american, upholding your rights so you or your grandchildren can live free and comfortable one day.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Spanky on Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 03:39:57 AM
umm and rights being lost, its slow, but its sure...

1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF SPEECH
• The Patriot Act broadly expands the official definition of
terrorism, so that many domestic groups that engage in
nonviolent civil disobedience could very well find themselves
labeled as terrorists.
• The Government may now prosecute librarians or keepers
of any other records if they reveal that the government
requested information on their clients or members in the
course of an investigation. It has become a crime for these
individuals to try to safeguard your privacy or to tell you
that you are under investigation.

1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION
• Government agents may now monitor the First Amendment protected
activities of religious and political institutions, and
then infiltrate these groups with no suspicion of criminal
activity. This is a return to domestic spying on law-abiding
religious and political groups.
• You may now be the subject of a government investigation
simply because of the political, activist, or advocacy
groups you are involved in, or the statements you make
within these groups.
1st AMENDMENT RIGHT TO ACCESS
GOVERNMENT INFORMATION
• A U.S. Department of Justice directive actively encourages
federal, state, and local officials to resist and/or limit access
to government records through Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) requests.
• The Government has conducted immigration hearings in
secret behind closed doors. Such proceedings were once
open to the public. Hundreds, if not thousands, of immigrants
have already been deported in secret.


4th AMENDMENT FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE
SEARCHES &SEIZURES
• Law Enforcement authorities may now conduct secret searches and wiretaps in your home or office
without showing “probable cause.” They need only to claim that intelligence gathering is “a significant
purpose” of their intrusion, even when the primary goal is ordinary law enforcement. They may also
monitor where and to whom you send and receive e-mail, or where you go on the Internet, recording
every e-mail address and website you have been in contact with.
• Law Enforcement may now demand any personal records held by any source including your doctor,
employer, accountant, or library. All they have to do is claim that it is related to an investigation into
“terrorism.” The record keepers may not reveal that your records were provided to the government.
• Judicial oversight of secret searches has been effectively minimized. The Patriot Act directs judges to
consent to secret searches based only on the Government’s assertion that a “significant” purpose of
an investigation is gathering information related to “terrorism,” as the government defines it.
I honestly have no problem with any of that. I have nothing to hide. As far as information, anybody else can steal it quite easily. Google has history of my internet search results.

Anybody, including american citizens, that are deemed terrorist by the government, can be arrested and prosecuted accordingly, with no right to be heard in court or infront of a judge.
That sucks. But again though, I'm not active in politics, I don't run any government hate organizations, I have no reason to be targeted. Chances are highly unlikely that someone like me will be picked up by black vans for terrorist activities.

edit: last quote in previous post had nothing to do with joining the military. lol, i wont either. had to do with being american, upholding your rights so you or your grandchildren can live free and comfortable one day.
I know you didn't mention the military at all but to me, it's the same thing. There are those that support it and want to be active in defending it. A lot of people join the military to preserve american rights. Very close together point. I don't bother getting involved in any of it. I'll avoid a semi-long rant on the military for now though.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: soupcakes on Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 04:11:55 AM
wow. once again, i can honestly respect  your views spanky... and understand how its not much concern for you... but i just have to ask, none of that seems wrong to you? Basically no privacy rights? Its all gravy? really? Im not tryin to bash or anything, its just... when i see shit like this, people losing rights, the pit of my stomach turns, my blood pumps a little faster and i stand with my dick in my hand thinkin 'wtf, how could this even happen?'...... guess its just me. I can understand a criminal stealing my information.... but the government? I believe that these stomps on the constitution were predicted long ago, by people like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson... that they were trying to warn us, when you give up rights because of 'fear from some boogy man' you lose everything this country was founded on.... and it kinda saddens me that not many people are willing to take a stand for what they believe... simply dont care or lost hope about america's future... as long as i get paid every 2 weeks and pay my bills, the world can do whatever. Guess the values of standing up for what you believe and upholding the American rights got swept under the door mat (...the constitution itself, same door mat)


And skrewy, sad to say, but your probably right... as history proves usually takes a revolution to get any kind of change... Guess I hold onto the optimism that maybe one day it could be changed without violence.

oh and sorry got to bring this up spanky, bugged me a lil.... i know you probably wrote 'cool rocks, i agree with everything on them' lightly/jokingly... but from a serious perspective, if those rules of the rocks went into effect tomorrow, it would be cool? maybe you would be picked to be one of the 500 mil, but what if your brother wasnt fit enough? or your dad wasnt pure enough? and there was somebody who more fit and pure than your mother? and somebody else played God of who lives and who dies, you simply got no choice.... just saying, when you look into it, its a fucked up thought.

thanks again for reading, and also thank you for expressing your views without flame or bash  :)
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Spanky on Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 05:29:01 AM
soupcakes, I respect your opinions as well and it's nice to have a mellow discussion about this kind of stuff.

I'm not bothered by it because I have nothing to hide. The government knows how much money I make via taxes, the state knows where I live via taxes... There's not much information that's private anyway. It's not no privacy rights. It's not like the government has the power to overlook everything you do and it's not like EVERYBODY's information is being looked up. The more systems you're in, the more your information is out there. It's like I used to say, if you want to be 100% safe on the internet, unplug your computer.

Now, just because I'm not bothered by it doesn't mean I agree with it. But, it falls back on the fact that it would take a lot to effect change. I don't want to spend my life TRYING to get positive (in my mind) change to happen. I have no hope for America's future. I have little hope for the world's future.

About the rocks, I wasn't joking. I seriously think the world's population needs to decline rapidly. I know this is a touchy subject so I'll offer a disclaimer:
I would never endanger or cut short someone else's life except in self defense.
With that said, I think a lot of people on the planet could be eliminated. It's somewhat hitler-esque but it's true. There's too many stupid wasteful people that are simply a waste of oxygen and resources. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a great specimin for future generations to be built on. Various chronic diseases, cancers and illnesses run in my family's history. It's one reason why I have no desire to have kids. On the other hand though, there's plenty of brilliant minds and healthy (both mentally and physically) gene pools out there that need to be tapped more. The only hope for the future is by getting rid of ignorant, waste-of-good-oxygen, progress-retarding people. I won't make lists because I'm not hitler and I won't ever act on these thoughts, I'm just saying this for the sake of argument.


I could probably go on a bit more but it's 2:28am... way past bed time.
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Go_Cat75 on Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 06:14:30 AM
I'm outnumbered in voicing my opinion thus it's pointless.

Was Ghandi's voice pointless or Mandella's what about Martin Luther King.

I understand your reasoning but if it wasn't for some individuals that started as a single lone voice then we would be living in quite a different world.

Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Go_Cat75 on Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 06:36:16 AM
I am of your view soup on what is being lost. 

The driving force is fear in making these changes.  What is terrorism? The fear of something or someone and involves the removal or rights and freedom. 

Basically Terrorism is winning as people are in fear already because of the knowledge it could happen to them by the propaganda in the media and they would rather give up there rights on the small chance that this will save them if they don't.  If you look back to what I describe as terrorism then basically we are already in the early stages of being terrorism by our own countries by this practice of removing of rights I'm sure countries where this happens didnt see it coming either.

To put it in reality how many people have been killed by terrorism in western countries since 2001 - I put it at about 5000.  This is a Very small percentage when your counting 100's of millions of people.  I think your chances are pretty good you won't die from terrorism, your more likely to die in a car yet people want to give up thier rights.  Why dont you also stop driving cars?

 



Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: soupcakes on Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 06:40:48 AM
soupcakes, I respect your opinions as well and it's nice to have a mellow discussion about this kind of stuff.

I'm not bothered by it because I have nothing to hide. The government knows how much money I make via taxes, the state knows where I live via taxes... There's not much information that's private anyway. It's not no privacy rights. It's not like the government has the power to overlook everything you do and it's not like EVERYBODY's information is being looked up. The more systems you're in, the more your information is out there. It's like I used to say, if you want to be 100% safe on the internet, unplug your computer.

Now, just because I'm not bothered by it doesn't mean I agree with it. But, it falls back on the fact that it would take a lot to effect change. I don't want to spend my life TRYING to get positive (in my mind) change to happen. I have no hope for America's future. I have little hope for the world's future.

word, understood. glad we could have an interesting convo bout this too... traded shoes for a minute.

About the rocks, I wasn't joking. I seriously think the world's population needs to decline rapidly. I know this is a touchy subject so I'll offer a disclaimer:
I would never endanger or cut short someone else's life except in self defense.
With that said, I think a lot of people on the planet could be eliminated. It's somewhat hitler-esque but it's true. There's too many stupid wasteful people that are simply a waste of oxygen and resources. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a great specimin for future generations to be built on. Various chronic diseases, cancers and illnesses run in my family's history. It's one reason why I have no desire to have kids. On the other hand though, there's plenty of brilliant minds and healthy (both mentally and physically) gene pools out there that need to be tapped more. The only hope for the future is by getting rid of ignorant, waste-of-good-oxygen, progress-retarding people. I won't make lists because I'm not hitler and I won't ever act on these thoughts, I'm just saying this for the sake of argument.

with all do respect spanky, im for real lmao.. your fuckin epic sir.

alright, all seriousness. I agree, some(alot) people are definitly waste of skin and space, thats a given. But I think the death penalty for being a douche bag is pretty ice cold... i mean, douche bags have it hard enough, they have to go through their whole life being a douche.... And why would you trust the one that could one determine who is worthy of living and dying? In Hitlers day, it was the jews who were unworthy of air, and the blond hair'd blue eye'd boys worthy of living.... and how could you determine who has the right to live before some are even given a chance, like all the babies and children... not to mention pregnant moms that would have to perish too. And just think about it, if that system was in place thousands of years ago, what great inventors or leaders would of been killed before given a chance? Would we even have the freedoms we do today?

And ill admit too, I'm probably not one to make it in the 500 mil either. Plenty of better athletes than me, plenty of smarter people in the world to boot... but your freaken hardcore spanky... you would give up your own life, for somebody else's definition of 'greater good?'...call me selfish, but I personally, couldnt. I love my life, family and fiancee too much... I enjoy living... I would fight to keep what i got, before just give it all up, to anybody.

In the end, dont we all seek the same thing?.... want to spend time with the ones we love, Live comfortable, have some kind of financial security and be free to make your own choices? I wouldnt want to see that taken from anyone.


to vote these changes away u would be asking the government to significantly reduce its power, and the power of law enforcement. Obvious that wont happen if you ask nicely. Same as if you ask them why they think they deserve pay rises, they will laugh at you.

well true,but theres other ways.... A) you could vote for a politician thats anti government and for restoring the constitution...and i mean, theres always B)  if x amount of people were aware and demanded these unconstitutional laws removed, it would put some more pressure towards change... and dont get me wrong, even that could fail.... and at that point, i guess theres not much choice but option C, revolution.





but ya, 4:29 am here... cig, sleep n work  ;)


soup
Title: Re: Osama bin Ladin
Post by: Spanky on Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 13:38:18 PM
word, understood. glad we could have an interesting convo bout this too... traded shoes for a minute.

with all do respect spanky, im for real lmao.. your fuckin epic sir.
Haha, thanks :)

alright, all seriousness. I agree, some(alot) people are definitly waste of skin and space, thats a given. But I think the death penalty for being a douche bag is pretty ice cold... i mean, douche bags have it hard enough, they have to go through their whole life being a douche.... And why would you trust the one that could one determine who is worthy of living and dying? In Hitlers day, it was the jews who were unworthy of air, and the blond hair'd blue eye'd boys worthy of living.... and how could you determine who has the right to live before some are even given a chance, like all the babies and children... not to mention pregnant moms that would have to perish too. And just think about it, if that system was in place thousands of years ago, what great inventors or leaders would of been killed before given a chance? Would we even have the freedoms we do today?

And ill admit too, I'm probably not one to make it in the 500 mil either. Plenty of better athletes than me, plenty of smarter people in the world to boot... but your freaken hardcore spanky... you would give up your own life, for somebody else's definition of 'greater good?'...call me selfish, but I personally, couldnt. I love my life, family and fiancee too much... I enjoy living... I would fight to keep what i got, before just give it all up, to anybody.
I wouldn't want to be the one making the list or deciding. But, neither of us ever said that it had to be this way. We could just implement Chinese law that every couple can only have 1 kid. This would ensure, at least in the modern world, that over time the population would decrease. Granted, we would still have inferior gene pools and stupid people but at least there's less.


In the end, dont we all seek the same thing?.... want to spend time with the ones we love, Live comfortable, have some kind of financial security and be free to make your own choices? I wouldnt want to see that taken from anyone.
I agree. But I can still live comfortable not knowing what goes on globally or in the world of politics :)