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Community => The Lounge => Hardware/Software => Topic started by: eKC0mm on Wednesday, August 08, 2012, 00:41:43 AM
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Im interested to hear what you guys have to say about this. You in particular Spanky.
I understand you dont like the x-fi's or anything Creative it seams because they lack quality in their components.
I bought my X-fi a few years ago and music sounds great, movies sound great, and i can hear my footsteps :) It seams to do everything well.
Why is it that x-fi's pale in comparison to other cards? What cards would you recommend? and what exactly make a good sound card.
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Think of a product in it's basic elements. A laptop is meant to be portable and because of that, it will never run as cool, fast or cheaply as a desktop computer. Corners are cut.
A gaming sound card like the X-Fi is typically meant for multi-channel audio output as well as hardware acceleration of audio (totally useless feature for anyone with a dual core or faster computer) and weird equalizer tweaks that 95% of users don't know how to use properly (i.e. don't use them). X-Fi cards are the cheapest way to get multi-channel analog audio out of your computer with gamer features.
The first no-no is the DAC chip the X-Fi uses. DAC chips have one job, to convert the digital audio signal into an analog signal that can be fed to speakers/headphones. DAC chips are semiconductors and how efficient their circuitry is affects how good the conversion is. The DAC chip in the X-Fi is a cheap multi-channel DAC that doesn't typically have a wide dynamic range and may muddle the sound if it's fed too much audio or too dynamic audio. DAC chips evolve almost as fast as CPU chips do. 10-15 years ago a DAC chip that might have cost thousands is worthless today. You can take this and realize that onboard audio isn't as bad as it used to be. A lot of newer boards have better or as good DAC chips as X-Fi cards.
The second no-no is the components. Capacitors, resistors, opamps and more. If Creative used quality components, you likely wouldn't be able to afford it. Quality capacitors cost money. There are some botique old Russian military caps that can fetch hundreds of dollars. Those aren't necessary for quality audio but it just shows that there's quite a bit to improve upon with a 1-cent capacitor. Affordable quality ones can cost $1-$5 depending on the type. Resistors run a little cheaper. Opamps are quite similar to DAC chips. Basically, they are a little chip that amplifies a signal; operational amplifier. They can vastly affect quality of audio. Can you guess if Creative used quality ones or cheap ones? Fact: A lot of the better sounding dedicated DAC units don't use opamps at all.
X-Fi sound cards are popular because of misinformation. Companies will always say their product is great, Creative is no exception. X-Fi cards were pretty decent back in the days of BF2, FEAR and a few other games around 2003-2005. Single core CPU's were all we had and offloading audio processing did improve FPS. The problem is, the technology never went anywhere because CPU's went all multi-core. Differences back in the day were maybe 5-10%, these days you would be lucky if you noticed it at all. So, they're low quality, horrible support and no real benefits of usage. Why are they popular? Gamers use a lot of products that have no real purpose, just look at crazy mouse pads, weird looking computer cases, flashing lights, headsets that make them look like they're in a military control room.
So what do you use? There are decent sound cards but their price is pretty out there. Brands like ASUS Xonar and Auzentech have decent ones but to get anything good, you need to go external. USB is where most audiophiles get their audio. One reason to use something external is to make sure your audio components don't use the dirty power generated by the switching power supply in your computer. Sure there's great quality computer power supplies but they're rated for longevity and amperage and reliability, not for a clean signal. Look up R-Core and Torridal power supplies. There's tons of DAC boxes out there and the market is constantly changing, there's tons of "flavor of the month" units and there's quite a few reliable brands. It takes a lot of research and a bit of saving to pull the trigger on your first setup.
I'm kinda running out of steam... it's hot and I dunno what else to say. If you have any specific questions, I can try to help. Look down in this forum a few posts; check out "What makes an excellent sound card" if you've got the time.
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But better sound card in overall sound quality doesn't mean tha u ll hear better in aao.that's why ppl go for xfi.because u hear better ingame.
And ofc its cheaper...
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But better sound card in overall sound quality doesn't mean tha u ll hear better in aao.that's why ppl go for xfi.because u hear better ingame.
And ofc its cheaper...
I believe he's looking for best sound quality overall not just in aao. Anyone buying cards specifically for this game still, well i don't even know what to say...
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i had the Creative sound blaster sound card, was ok not as good as i thought, now using Logitech G35 USB 2.0 Connector Surround Sound Headset
best sound out there so far, atleast for me
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104281
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I'm looking for a good card in general. Not for AA. If i want to hear stuff in AA ill just mess the EQ's up and stuff.
This is more of a learning thread for me. I want to know what makes good sound recreation. I noticed a huge difference not just in AA but in everything. i.e. music and videos too. when i installed my x-fi. I just can't imagin how things could sound better then they do now. But that probably just because i have NEVER heard anything better then x-fi sounds.
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If you want incredible useless sound for a pc then youre going to spend hundreds of dollars.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132023
It's pointless to me to go out and buy something like that when I'm perfectly fine with a 80$ sound card in which I could probably not tell a difference.
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Well start off with ignoring Creative, Logitech, Altec Lansing, Labtec and any other brand you'd find at Best Buy or any other big box stores. To give credit though, some of those stores will carry Sennheiser, BeyerDynamic, AudioTechnica or some other good brands but they jack the prices up and it's better to buy online.
To give credit to rxcaptain, that is a reason why gamers like X-Fi because they can mess with the audio and hear more. In every case though that just degrades quality. A lot of people like quality audio but they will mess with equalizers and stuff like that. I tend to take a purist approach and IMO it's the right way. Messing with the audio signal from a quality mastered CD, do you really know better than the technician with thousands of dollars into his setup and years of experience? No. If you get accurate reproducing headphones/speakers and neutral sounding gear, you're hearing it exactly as the artist/technician intended. Loudness wars is an issue you can't avoid and unfortunately those idiots don't know what they're doing to music but at least you can enjoy music the way it was produced if your system is decent.
Typically to get a good setup, you need beefy headphones that require a good amplifier. X-Fi cards and onboard audio typically don't amplify the signal in a quality way or with enough power to drive the headphones properly. I've always thought of it as a light bulb with low power. It's not going to output the proper amount of light but you can still see, it's just difficult. Give it the proper power and it performs great. This is the same for speakers, they need proper amplification to work properly. Remember both speakers and headphones are moving parts and in their most basic form, they need electricity to move properly.
eKC0mm, your first step IMO is to get a pair of headphones that suit you. The 3 brands above are ones I would recommend. I would shoot for anything Sennheiser 5xx or higher, BeyerDynamic DT770 or higher and AudioTechnicia, I'm not too knowledgeable on their confusing model numbers but their good ones start at about $90-$100. If you spend $100-$150 roughly on a pair of headphones (that aren't BOSE or Beats) you're doing good. It's a good introductory rage and will get you a real good taste of audio.
Use the following guides to help you narrow down a few choices of styles and prices you would like:
http://www.head-fi.org/a/headphone-buying-guide
http://www.head-fi.org/a/buying-guide-headphones-by-price-range
http://www.head-fi.org/a/a-hopefully-helpful-headphone-buying-guide-for-newbies-by-boomana
*EDIT*
lol Kicker, way to go off the handle. You can spend $300 and have a real great setup, you don't have to spend $600 on a DAC and any audio enthusiast wouldn't buy one at Newegg anyway. You're putting down quality audio without having tried it. Yea it looks ridiculous at first but once you hear it, you'll understand. Audio is the cheapest way to get immersed into another environment. Video is vastly more expensive to get quality and I'm not talking about junky piece of shit 40" LCD TV's at the big box store. I'm talking about IPS panels. Anyway, you CAN hear the difference, that is if you decide to pull your head out of your ass and stop thinking like a typical gamer.
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Thats 300$ that I'm not willing to spend and my buddy has a studio in where he produces music so don't tell me I haven't heard great sound before cause I have. My titanium is clear and has great sound for the price is what I'm getting at. I'm using a 7.1 surround system hooked up to my titanium using the digital i/o and it sounds great. It's just not worth it to me to go out and spend money on something in which I could probably not tell a difference.
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You said you "could probably not tell a difference" so that's saying you haven't heard quality before. See, you're bypassing a fair bit of the analog bullshit in your X-Fi which is good but I would wager your 7.1 system is likely 7 1" tweeters and a 10" or so subwoofer which will have very bloated bass and treble and highly recessed mids. I'd guess it's a boxed setup made by Creative or Logitech, not a real 7.1 system with a receiver and 2-way or 3-way speakers for each channel.
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To give credit to rxcaptain, that is a reason why gamers like X-Fi because they can mess with the audio and hear more. In every case though that just degrades quality. A lot of people like quality audio but they will mess with equalizers and stuff like that. I tend to take a purist approach and IMO it's the right way. Messing with the audio signal from a quality mastered CD, do you really know better than the technician with thousands of dollars into his setup and years of experience? No. If you get accurate reproducing headphones/speakers and neutral sounding gear, you're hearing it exactly as the artist/technician intended. Loudness wars is an issue you can't avoid and unfortunately those idiots don't know what they're doing to music but at least you can enjoy music the way it was produced if your system is decent.
im messing with eq only ingame..if i watch movie or listen music i put all that crap off or it sounds like shiiiiet lol
i have one question about aao:what determines how far do u hear?there is an amazing diffirence between onboard and x-fi.
and one more thing asus essence or auzen bravura?
ive read alot at headfi but ive never find some clear answers....
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Good deal then 1m50ry. The sound emitters in game determine how far you should hear but people mess with values that boost volume level and alter the distances. I think it's a combination of drivers, frequency boosting and ini tweaking that people use to manipulate sound in AA. The difference between onboard and X-Fi would be that AA is one of the few games that supports the X-Fi hardware and you may be getting EAX effects that echo sounds further than normal, there's also a difference between how the sounds are rendered on the X-Fi chip versus in Unreal via software.
Oh, and for ASUS vs Auzentech, I would go ASUS. Auzentech uses the X-Fi chips while ASUS doesn't. There's a LOT of audiophiles using ASUS Xonar series to get good audio out of their computers and while it won't be as good as a dedicated unit, it should be a good start over onboard or X-Fi.
Personally though, I would stick with something USB based that doesn't use proprietary drivers. This means you can literally plug it into any computer and get audio out. PCI sound cards will be useless in a few years when you can't find a motherboard with a PCI slot. PCI-e is future-proof but again like I said earlier in the thread, it uses the dirty power from the computer and has to deal with EMI/RFI from all the high frequency parts in the computer.
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You said you "could probably not tell a difference" so that's saying you haven't heard quality before. See, you're bypassing a fair bit of the analog bullshit in your X-Fi which is good but I would wager your 7.1 system is likely 7 1" tweeters and a 10" or so subwoofer which will have very bloated bass and treble and highly recessed mids. I'd guess it's a boxed setup made by Creative or Logitech, not a real 7.1 system with a receiver and 2-way or 3-way speakers for each channel.
You assume way to much. Telling me I haven't heard this and have that which isn't blah blah not good. Another pointless argument.
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I said "I would wager". That's not assuming, it's betting. Am I wrong? I'm not really sure why you're getting bent out of shape.
I have decided to finally get some good audio stuff and I remember you linking a relatively cheap (around $130) USB DAC in one of your posts but I dont feel like searching the forum for the post. Do you by any chance remember what it was? I was thinking about pairing it with a pair of Sennheiser HD-280 PRO Headphones (http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-280-Pro-Headphones/dp/B000065BPB)
Those look like good headphones to start. The USB DAC I probably recommneded was one of the NuForce units, uDAC I think. You might also check out the FIIO products, specifically the E10. There's a review thread here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/575084/impression-fiio-e10
In that thread there's comparisons to similar products.
Keep in mind they're meant to be cheap & small units, they're not going to be as good as a $300 desktop box. It's a good way to taste the quality of something dedicated without spending too much. If you like it, you can upgrade further.
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Thank you sir, I think I am going to go with the E10.
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No problem. If you do go with the E10, do post back here and tell us what you think. Try and break the gamer stereotype :)
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No problem. If you do go with the E10, do post back here and tell us what you think. Try and break the gamer stereotype :)
Ordered them with the HD 280's, all i need now is an attachable mic. As for breaking the gamer stereotype, I dont consider myself a gamer, the only games i play now days are diablo 2 and dayz.
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and asus essense st vs e10 what is better?
ini sound tweak=hack lol only sound tweak u can do is channels=128 all other shit shud be cvared
messing with eq helps alot in aao
one more question since u look like u know what are u talking about lol
how much better is bravura than creative xfi? is it like onboard vs xfi? the price diffirence is small and in some series the price is same....
the other thing is that if u buy some 200usd sound it shud be able to do both music/movies and games in some decent quality and im worry that that e10 will sux in games where it ll be beated by 10 years old 50usd xfi while in music/movies i think that the diffirence is not that big
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Ordered them with the HD 280's, all i need now is an attachable mic.
Zalman makes one that attaches to your headphone cable. Not really good quality but over VOIP, who cares :)
1m50ry, it's really hard to say is xxxxx card better than xxxxx card. The more you spend in audio, the less you get. It's like limited returns. When you drop $200 on your first setup, the amount of improvement is the most you'll ever see. You could drop $1k on an audio setup and see slight improvements. That first step is always the biggest. I really suggest going on Head-Fi and seeing what other people say. I'm not super knowledgeable, I'm just a beginner too. You gotta realize though that some people like bloated bass, some people like harsh treble. There's quite a few headphones out there that are fantastic for movies & games but for critical music listening, they're not as good as other choices. The headphone choice when you're a beginner is much more important than DAC/amp choice. BeyerDynamic DT770/80 headphones have a lot of bass and are great for movies & games but their highs become sibilant and when you notice that, they kinda suck. Part of the fun in audio is trying different products and seeing what you like the best.
TL;DR: Headphone choice is more important for sound signature and quality. Get a DAC & amp that will power those headphones properly. At a beginner level, there won't be much difference between DACs and amps.
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Seeing how passionate Spanky is about audio makes me think he'll never leave these forums just for the sake that someone will ask another question related to audio. :)
As I see you know far more than I do about anything audio I was wondering what you think of the Speedlink Medusa 5.1 headphones I have (bought them a couple of years ago with X-Fi soundcard, but am now on my laptop so obviously no X-Fi for me)?
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I do like being on these forums for good non-AA discussions with nice people, I'll admit that. But these types of discussions are the ones I'm hoping to take and grow on GamingRevised.com
Unfortunately I've got to give a thumbs down for your headphones. Typically any "gamer" product is a no-go. LCD monitors for gamers have fast refresh times but they all use TN panels and their color isn't as good as it could be. Gamer mice have a lot of buttons, weird designs and lights but not a lot of ergonomics. Same for keyboards. Sound equipment is no different.
Regular headphones have a hard time competing with speakers because the drivers just aren't large enough and they are only 1-way which means 1 driver has a hard time keeping up with the dynamics of audio. A great example of this is when I had my speakers apart and was playing some music. I then tried to feed it a 20hz signal while playing music but the 20hz never came through because the music was a much higher frequency and my woofer just couldn't make both sounds. Really, 3-way speakers are where dynamics really come in. So, with normal headphones only having 1 tiny driver to produce audio, how can surround headphones be anything but worse with 2-3 drivers per cup? The drivers have to be smaller. Not to mention too, the price point for surround headphones from what I've seen is $100-$150. That's the same price as introductory audiophile headphones. To be tossing in extra drivers and a microphone at the same price, they couldn't ever compete with real quality headphones. They might compete with $40-$50 headphones but obviously gamers will choose one with a built-in mic and think that they need 5.1 for better directional audio.
With good headphones and speakers, you can hear exactly where people are. You don't need multi-channel audio. As a very generic and blanket statement, multi-channel audio doesn't have as good of products as stereo does. There are setups where you get an expensive 5.1 or 7.1 receiver and add speakers of your choice but the question of how much good can you fit into a box comes around. The 5.1 and 7.1 receivers are jammed full of equipment and it's difficult to get good wattage output, maybe 100-150 watts per channel on 7 speakers. Not to mention a lot of the cheaper $300-$400 receivers simply die within a few years of use because they're built cheaply. Multi-channel audio is fun to play with but not nearly as practical and affordable as stereo audio.
Hopefully this explains a few things, I know I ran around the subject a bit, I typed it in-between phone calls with customers. Busy morning -_-
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Yeah it helped.
And you're right, mine did break after a year of using them, fortunately the warranty was still active back then and I had them replaced. Then again they broke a little a year or 2 after the warranty situation, but then a little glue could just fix it :)
The headphones have 4 audio jacks (3 for output and 1 for input), but as I'm on a laptop I can only use 1 anyway and the only reason I'm using these headphones is because all the cheap shit I've bought for ~15€ has died on me and this is the only pair that still works (although, as I mentioned the plastic broke a little a couple of years ago).
As for the busy morning, it's evening here in Estonia :D but then again it's been pretty busy, too :)
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You brought up a good point Teddy. Those headphones are likely better than ones found for $10-$15 both in terms of build quality and sound quality. Also being in Estonia, your selections are probably somewhat limited.
I will say that I owned the Beyerdynamic DT770/80 headphones and those are built like a rock. Unfortunately, I was a bit rough with them and cracked the super hard plastic cup with my screwdriver and then smashed the adjustment component between my chair (wood, heavy) and my desk and...
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/464376/website/audio/headphones/DSCF0369.JPG)
But they still worked. I could have put some glue in there but I sold them off for parts instead. Just goes to show that even well-built sturdy headphones can be broken even with the best intentions to keep them nice.
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I ve also figured that no review can help u to point on one best card.......its matter of trying 2-3 best and than choose...but i dont want waste 400 eu on cards which ill not use than hahaha
some time ago i wanted buy new sound card but i was reading all reviews and thinking about it so long untill i spent the money for something else hahaha
lately ive read abot ultrasone headphones..that they have inside some special drivers which rocks even on onboard....any experience with these??
and which headphones amp would u recommend to connect to xfi to get better sound in aao.....and would it help???
i ve read about C.E.C. HD53R-80 amplifier but cant find the price on google lol
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I own the AudioTechnica ATH-AD 700. Have had them for about 5 years and I really like them. I think they were like $120 back then.
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i ve read about C.E.C. HD53R-80 amplifier but cant find the price on google lol
$1000... nice
http://www.kopfhoererstudio.com/kopfhoererverstaerker/cec/CEC_HD_53_R-80.php?Kopfhoererladen=f1bfdg3885pdopj180hge2m426
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It does take a fair bit of research & trial to find something that YOU enjoy. I've not tried Ultrasone headphones. I wouldn't recommend plugging any pair of headphones into onboard audio or X-Fi because neither provide enough amplification (not volume, that's different).
Exception named a popular gaming headphone which is really good but I hear they lack a bit of bass and aren't as comfortable as some other models. With that said, they're relatively cheap and give great positional audio.
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Ordered them with the HD 280's, all i need now is an attachable mic. As for breaking the gamer stereotype, I dont consider myself a gamer, the only games i play now days are diablo 2 and dayz.
you tryina copy me or something? i have the hd 280 pros as well.
I have the HT Omega Striker sound card. i think it delivers great sound. I've heard good things about the Claro Halo's as well.
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you tryina copy me or something? i have the hd 280 pros as well.
I have the HT Omega Striker sound card. i think it delivers great sound. I've heard good things about the Claro Halo's as well.
Cool, how do you like them? I am not a huge fan of bass.
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Cool, how do you like them? I am not a huge fan of bass.
they're really good imo. theres not a lot of bass. everything is pretty much equal all around. you'll love them. I got a good deal on them on amazon like a year ago
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they're really good imo. theres not a lot of bass. everything is pretty much equal all around. you'll love them. I got a good deal on them on amazon like a year ago
Ya I got a refurbished pair for $60
I got my DAC in the mail but my headphones wont be here until next week. First impression, this thing is built really well. I honestly feel like I could throw it against the wall and have it still work. It is very small so it can easily be portable, however, it solely uses the usb cable for power so you need a computer to use it.
Upon first litening to a song (Finally Free (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6ZW0_jmi2Q)) there is a pretty big noticeable difference, remember that I am still using cheap headphones (http://www.amazon.com/Philips-SHO9561-28-Over-Ear-Headphones/dp/B003VNKKV2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344642877&sr=8-2&keywords=phillips+stretch). It has a bass option on the front that kicks up the bass quite a bit, I mostly keep this off though. Overall it is good so far, I will withhold further judgment until my headphones get here.
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Awesome! I'm glad you notice a significant difference Nick. Those little devices are cool for portability. Means you can take them with you on a laptop, velcro it to the screen or something.
Anyway, I'm excited to know that someone else is seeing the benefits of affordable upgrades to audio equipment :)