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Author Topic: Ban Standardization  (Read 30658 times)

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Offline hype

Ban Standardization
« on: Wednesday, February 26, 2025, 16:45:42 PM »
Admins, if you're going to use your own discretion to just ban people from the client, not everyone in the community is going to view punishments as being fair. The easiest way to go about this is to stop banning anyone (other than cheating) and let server admins decide what to do. This was the way it was done with the live version of AA.

If it's too much of an ask for you to restrict some of your power, can you please develop a set of rules for the game itself? Currently, there is no consistent basis for how you ban anyone outside of cheating.

Example: Bumpy consistently uses racial slurs and is extremely disrespectful to many people, yet no action is ever taken against him and his 10 accounts. On the flip side, joe gets banned for using a real name, even though the person who had their name used said to unban him. This can be seen as playing favorites.

Edit: And since joe is such a controversial subject, even without using him as an example the issue of using admin discretion is still present. If you're going to ban for speech, provide a set of rules so there is a clear delineation of what is allowed or restricted.

« Last Edit: Wednesday, February 26, 2025, 16:56:37 PM by hype »
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Offline rainmaker

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday, February 26, 2025, 16:57:56 PM »
agreed

Offline HellB0Y

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday, February 26, 2025, 18:27:04 PM »
Firstly, to address the obvious—this post is clearly referencing a specific individual who has been banned from the game. It is extraordinarily rare for someone to be banned from Assist in 2025, especially for reasons other than cheating.

Secondly, as we've stated previously, we're not sitting around and monitoring in-game chat logs. If you notice someone using slurs, engaging in targeted harassment, or any similar behavior, you can PM evidence to anyone on the team and it will be reviewed and discussed. The priority is to maintain a welcoming environment for all players—both new and returning.

It is also important to mention that, without getting into specifics, there can be many underlying reasons why someone was banned and why a ban hasn't been lifted. Alex has already shared some additional insight in the other thread but even so, there is more to be taken into consideration than may meet the eye.

Lastly, implementing a code of conduct, community guidelines, or something to that effect, certainly couldn't hurt. However, I’d wager that the vast majority of players have nothing to worry about and would find limited value in guidelines that would likely boil down to: don’t cheat and try to show at least a basic level of respect for others in this community.

Perhaps some others can chime in with their opinions but what I've outlined above is my own.

Offline Playtronics

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday, February 26, 2025, 20:39:22 PM »
Well Said HellBoy

Offline Alex

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday, February 26, 2025, 22:46:18 PM »
Just echoing what Hellboy  said, we have no ability to monitor in-game chat. If you see something, please report it. Joe has been posting vile shit in the shoutbox, which we can see. If you have any issues of players harassing others in-game please take a screenshot and report it.

As  much as some of the player base would like to believe otherwise, AA2 is and always was meant to be enjoyed by everyone. Nobody should feel unsafe or harassed for simply playing a game.

Edit: And since joe is such a controversial subject, even without using him as an example the issue of using admin discretion is still present. If you're going to ban for speech, provide a set of rules so there is a clear delineation of what is allowed or restricted.
As Hellboy said (in much more professional terms than I will use here)
 Just don't be a fucking asshole. That's it. Do not harass others, do not use slurs. Is this really needed to be specified? This is basic human decency and if you can't follow it you have much bigger problems than being banned in a 20 year old game.

Offline hype

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #5 on: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 02:43:36 AM »
Just echoing what Hellboy  said, we have no ability to monitor in-game chat. If you see something, please report it. Joe has been posting vile shit in the shoutbox, which we can see. If you have any issues of players harassing others in-game please take a screenshot and report it.

As  much as some of the player base would like to believe otherwise, AA2 is and always was meant to be enjoyed by everyone. Nobody should feel unsafe or harassed for simply playing a game.
As Hellboy said (in much more professional terms than I will use here)
 Just don't be a fucking asshole. That's it. Do not harass others, do not use slurs. Is this really needed to be specified? This is basic human decency and if you can't follow it you have much bigger problems than being banned in a 20 year old game.

You use shoutbox as an example, yet the same person I mentioned (bumpy) talks shit in there, and numerous people have previously posted in that shoutbox what he has said in-game. Where's the concern on that one?

Firstly, to address the obvious—this post is clearly referencing a specific individual who has been banned from the game. It is extraordinarily rare for someone to be banned from Assist in 2025, especially for reasons other than cheating.

I used a recent and controversial ban as an example. Additionally, you both casually omitted the part where the "victim" said joe didn't need to be banned.
« Last Edit: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 03:08:05 AM by hype »
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Offline teddy_grizzly_bear

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Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #6 on: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 04:14:43 AM »
I will entertain this thread as if this was a genuine interest in fairness rather than a specific interest in getting an individual unbanned (which it clearly is).

Others have already covered the visibility aspects of this. So I'll try to focus on the standardization.

I think you're right. There could be more transparancy regarding behaviour related bans. While we do have a TOS to cover the very basics, it is rather vague (as these things tend to be).
With that said, I'd wager a guess you can't probably list many players that have seen behaviour related bans. Especially permanent ones. And that should go to show how seriously we take this responsibility.
But the problem is, you can't easily take these examples as a line in the sand because (most likely) you weren't there for all of the referenced behaviour. And hell, some of the behaviour may not even have been referenced publically. Perhaps that is part of the problem (I don't think so, but the community sentiment may differ).

There's a great saying where I come from: "kus viga näed laita, seal tule ja aita". I suppose the rough translation being "If you see a problem, help fix it"
We are a community after all. And community guidelines should reflect the values of the community. So if you think you've got the ability to help get things rolling, then please do so. If we keep the process of creating these guidelines open to the community, they're far more likely to actually voice the viewpoint of the community.

So I'd call upon anyone that's (actually) interested in the fairness of the action the Assist admin team takes to come forward and voice their opinion.
Though do please do so in the following manner:
  • Each separate point to address in the guidelines in a separate paragraph
  • Each paragraph starts with a bolded phrase / sentence to summarise it
  • Each paragraph continues a longer body of justification and description of the point
Topics that could be of interest:
  • When does behaviour / speech become harassment?
  • What metrics should be used to classify a message threatening?
  • What metrics should be used to classify a message embarassing?
  • Where is the line for untolerated hate speech?
  • What is the level of offensive language that should be allowed?
Things to bare in mind while trying to answer these questions:
  • 25Assist is not the US government. Whether you're from the US or elsewhere, we can take action on speech / behaviour that would be protected by the US' first amendment (which protects citizens' speech from being suppressed by the government)
  • We have an international community. Different countries/cultures have different values. Yours is not more correct than someone else's
  • The whole point of a community guidelines is to show the viewpoint of the community, not an individual

I find these questions incredibly hard to answer. But I'm sure others in the community are better suited for the task.
<image removed due to imgur stuff - probably for the best>

"Mathematics may be defined as the subject in which we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true." Bertrand Russell

Offline !The_Engineer!

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #7 on: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 09:06:50 AM »
Most of the Assist admins are rarely on the servers to see what going on in a day to day basis. Hellboy and Bart being the exception and even then not so much recently. Screenshots do not always provide a complete picture of what is going on, either for or against a potential violation. There is a big difference between friendly in game banter and repeated unsolicited targeted abuse, tk's, threats of violence, etc... How to you find the right balance between the two?

Now with that said, most of the time these types of issues could and should be handled at the server level. It's only when the individual takes it to the community at large with the same repeated unsolicited targeted abuse, threats of violence, etc... in the chatbox / forums that he/she is looking for a community response and that is when the Assist admins could and should get involved to see if this is a community issue that needs to be addressed. One exception to this would be doxing which should probably be handled differently as it was in a recent case. 

On a side note: one of the things I like about Gunny as server admin is he has the ability to take a lot of shit and just chew it up and spit it out. So when he has an objection to someone or something I respect that. I thing he should be made an assist admin personally cause he is on all the time and sees what is going on.

#GunnyForAssistAdmin
« Last Edit: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 09:34:46 AM by !The_Engineer! »

Offline General_alkos

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #8 on: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 09:47:31 AM »
!Engineer!
What kind of nonsense is this to you?
We don't need another assist admin, especially a moron like your friend..
#GunnyForAssistAdmin

Offline !The_Engineer!

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #9 on: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 10:38:04 AM »
Respectfully, I think you are missing the point of why I suggested what I suggested.

Just to name a few points..

A good and effective admin needs to actually be active in the server(s) and community on all whole and he in my opinion checks that box.

Another good quality an admin must have is the ability to not over react to a situation or simply ban or otherwise discipline people based on what mood they are in. Again I feel he checks that box.

Furthermore whether I am his friend or my friendliness with him is irrelevant .

Offline General_alkos

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #10 on: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 10:51:42 AM »
I agree with those few points but we don't need a single assist admin anymore! (ESPECIALLY MORON)
So far, so many smart people have passed who played every day and had the knowledge to change something in aa2 and never became assist admins!
Today we don't have an assist admin who can bring the most common 203 back into the game (except for possessed who doesn't want to mess with it, hasn't played for years and is the only one who can do something), so we have assist admins who only keep the peace in aa2!
« Last Edit: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 10:55:19 AM by General_alkos »

Offline teddy_grizzly_bear

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Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #11 on: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 10:57:56 AM »
[--]except for possessed who [--] hasn't played for years
I'll just leave you with the link:
https://aatracker.net/player/%3D%5DFEC%5B%3DPossessed
and the quote from it:
Quote
Last Tracked: [AATracker.net] Community Server - SF Extraction - (01/08/2025 03:22:58)

<image removed due to imgur stuff - probably for the best>

"Mathematics may be defined as the subject in which we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true." Bertrand Russell

Offline General_alkos

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #12 on: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 11:00:27 AM »
..I saw him sign up for aa2 a few times but I didn't see him play..

Offline Carmy

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Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #13 on: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 11:43:01 AM »
I agree Eng. He's the only one always, On line with me . So I really know, How he is . Number 1.

Offline !The_Engineer!

Re: Ban Standardization
« Reply #14 on: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 11:53:57 AM »
@General, would it be more effective to make a point as to why my suggestion for Gunny was unfounded rather than to throw unnecessary insult towards him. Your of an age similar to me so I would ask you is this how adults of our age group talk to each other? Would you call him an insult in person for no reason?

I always do my best to treat others with respect even when I disagree with them and that concept has served me well in life.

If Teddy and the other admin create strict rules here would your insult be over the line and grounds for disciplinary action? I mean it was an unsolicited insult that was uncalled for.

I am not suggesting that any action be taken against you for your comment but just showing how difficult it is for Admins to moderated online content. Even Meta and X are all over the place on this over the years.

Questions to ponder over.
« Last Edit: Thursday, February 27, 2025, 11:58:24 AM by !The_Engineer! »

 

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