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Assist => Feedback & Suggestions => Bug Reports => Topic started by: Leet on Thursday, January 08, 2015, 14:57:54 PM

Title: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Leet on Thursday, January 08, 2015, 14:57:54 PM
Hi all,

I'm not sure if it's a texture or a code issue, but one thing that I've always found silly is that you can throw a smoke in pipeline in the corner outside of main entrance and it will fill the hallway and main entrance with smoke. Is there any way to fix the smoke penetration of these walls?
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Spanky on Thursday, January 08, 2015, 15:39:23 PM
Not at all. This kind of behavior happens even in modern games. Basically, the smoke is just a whole pile of transparent textures overlayed on each other. The texture is scaled larger and then disappears. The texture goes through anything, any object. If enough time was spent and the engine was better, it might be possible to use hundreds or thousands of textures in small scale rather than the 20 or so large ones that make up the smoke now. By using tons of smaller textures, you can make them behave like particles and have them bounce off walls and things like that. But, this engine is so old that FPS would be almost non-existent if this happened.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: teddy_grizzly_bear on Thursday, January 08, 2015, 15:49:49 PM
Yes, like Spanky said, there's noting that can be done really.

But what I wanted to say was that I know some of the competitions didn't allow using this "feature" at some points.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: NoBigDeal on Thursday, January 08, 2015, 18:39:22 PM
Actually, this engine is capable to destroy particle on collision - it depends on particle implementation, but this will 'kill' online gaming (is too 'heavy' for net).
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Spanky on Thursday, January 08, 2015, 19:01:11 PM
Yea, you can kill particles but then you have huge amounts of smoke disappearing and it's not very realistic, at least with large textures/sprites. If you used hundreds or thousands of sprites, having them destroy on collision would work, it just would be very intensive and not feasible on this engine.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Mixk on Thursday, January 08, 2015, 20:07:53 PM
What else would you expect to happen with all the cheap workmanship and corner cutting all the building contractors were using constructing the buildings. Cracks in walls so large you see peoples heads and guns coming through. HA HA  :D :D
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: teddy_grizzly_bear on Friday, January 09, 2015, 01:12:34 AM
What else would you expect to happen with all the cheap workmanship and corner cutting all the building contractors were using constructing the buildings. Cracks in walls so large you see peoples heads and guns coming through. HA HA  :D :D
Yeah, apparantly the US Army didn't have money to hire good builders so they outsourced it to India or China or something.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Leet on Friday, January 09, 2015, 02:23:30 AM
That's interesting, why are textures allowed to pass through each other anyway? Rather, why isn't there some sort of collision detection for *specific* texture interactions (like wall and smoke)?
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Spanky on Friday, January 09, 2015, 02:31:17 AM
You can do collision for BSP (walls). You generally don't want collision though because the textures are so huge and if one disappeared, it would almost make the whole screen flash and look weird. Particles are a very tricky thing to get looking right, darn near impossible on an old engine.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: teddy_grizzly_bear on Friday, January 09, 2015, 03:44:25 AM
You can do collision for BSP (walls). You generally don't want collision though because the textures are so huge and if one disappeared, it would almost make the whole screen flash and look weird. Particles are a very tricky thing to get looking right, darn near impossible on an old engine.
So all in all, from what I've gathered, the problem is that you can't just "delete" a part of texture, you can only remove the whole thing. And because smoke is made out of just a couple (10-15 I guess?) of textures, having some of them disappear would make it look aweful and useless.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Spanky on Friday, January 09, 2015, 12:57:07 PM
So all in all, from what I've gathered, the problem is that you can't just "delete" a part of texture, you can only remove the whole thing. And because smoke is made out of just a couple (10-15 I guess?) of textures, having some of them disappear would make it look aweful and useless.

Correct. You could get past this by using hundreds or thousands of textures that are much smaller so it behaves more like real life particles but, this engine is far too old to be capable of such hungry features.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: phuNkiii.ops on Friday, January 09, 2015, 14:40:08 PM
what about fixing the see through wall bug? (:
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Spanky on Friday, January 09, 2015, 14:43:08 PM
what about fixing the see through wall bug? (:
Make a list of places where this is a problem and provide screenshots, then we can use some trickery to prevent people from doing that, namely adding Anti-Portals in the walls.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: phuNkiii.ops on Friday, January 09, 2015, 14:52:51 PM
i can do it on any wall.. its very simple even works on terain in bridge but afterall its the same thing

cant move when i open map in offline for some reason?

ill just yolo PB and take few SS on some empty pipe server
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Spanky on Friday, January 09, 2015, 14:58:35 PM
You can't move because your player is locked, type "mpcheat playerlock0" in the console or just class a weapon.

I know that can be done on any wall, my point was, where is it a problem? Where is it an advantage? Where should we focus on fixing it?
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: phuNkiii.ops on Friday, January 09, 2015, 15:00:02 PM
its an advantage everywhere.. it even removes smoke/fog so you see stuff clearly..  Ez to check where people are or are moving..

example doing at start of round in CP room to see all enemys and where they are moving
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Leet on Friday, January 09, 2015, 15:09:36 PM
Or in main entrance, from outside to see where people are hiding inside of main and prefire at them / flash them. I see quite a few people doing this.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: teddy_grizzly_bear on Friday, January 09, 2015, 15:11:39 PM
You can't move because your player is locked, type "mpcheat playerlock0" in the console or just class a weapon.

I know that can be done on any wall, my point was, where is it a problem? Where is it an advantage? Where should we focus on fixing it?
You're such a noob when it come to offline playing.
There's no reason to use multiplayer cheats when playing offline (i.e singleplayer) ;) .

Just "class r" will give you a weapon and unlock you.
It also helps doing "god" and "deathstalker", last of which gives unlimited ammo.

I know what "see through walls" shit they're talking about and I know it's a problem for a lot of places, hell most of all places, the whole Pipeline map for instance. The thinner the wall the easier this is to do. However, I don't know of an easy way to "fix" this. As I believe it makes your camera go on the other side of the wall, it doesn't matter how many anti-portals you put there...
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Spanky on Friday, January 09, 2015, 15:21:19 PM
We can thicken walls but if your camera goes even slightly inside the wall, it can see through so by adding an anti-portal, everything will be removed from the map and the player will see nothing. It won't fix the problem but it will fix the advantage.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Ganja on Saturday, January 10, 2015, 06:58:41 AM
If you have decent normal sound you know where the enemy is anyway, specially on Pipeline
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: teddy_grizzly_bear on Saturday, January 10, 2015, 08:39:05 AM
If you have decent normal sound you know where the enemy is anyway, specially on Pipeline
Not when I throw a smoke and talk a lot on TS ;)
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Ganja on Saturday, January 10, 2015, 12:00:17 PM
Not when I throw a smoke and talk a lot on TS ;)

Haha you annoying fucker. I mean even without sound, the spots where the enemy is going to be are so predictable. Even more since most of the pubbers nowadays are too lazy to change tactics
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Ares on Saturday, January 10, 2015, 14:50:05 PM
there's no advantage at all for assault smoking that corner, all it does is cover sound for defense so they can nade/flash/do whatever the fuck they want. When i'm defense I love when assault smokes that corner, you can still see players coming through maindoor when leaning out as defense in main. So keep smoking peeps.
As far as the bugging goes, it's silly. Gives no real advantage in smoking through walls.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Bart! on Sunday, January 11, 2015, 07:00:51 AM
It was an advantage in weapons cache matches, when opposing team camped 3d floor you could already ruin their sound and sight a bit by smoking on top of the racks at 1st floor.

For pipe it does not help a lot, main purpose of such a smoke is for stopping the sound, but that only works on 4v4 when def does not know where to watch, distracting them at main and pushing north or primary valve.

It is a bit more annoying to see main, but still not enough smoke unless you stack some, which will give the team a disadvantage since they need those smokes in main pump.
Title: Re: Pipeline Smoke Penetration
Post by: Mixk on Sunday, January 11, 2015, 07:46:37 AM
I know that can be done on any wall, my point was, where is it a problem? Where is it an advantage? Where should we focus on fixing it?

Where I have seen it done most in pipeline is the steps coming into main pump room from main corridor, the exterior side of main pump room on the south side, exterior side of the east side of main building, and two spots outside oil tower entrance. One just south of the door and other where north east and east tunnels join.